Should I just sell and start over???

[Tom Adams]

I'm inclined to agree with Olorin's approach, but with a minor change - mostly a process sort of thing.

I would disconnect everything from your Denon except your DVD player, the LaScala's, and the Mac sub. Play some music and listen. Is the sound what you're wanting to achieve? Is it still lacking something?

I would then re-attach the side surrounds and center. Did it get worse? The same? Better?

My thought here is to go back to the basics and start from there. If the LaScala's and Mac sub sound good, yet adding in the rest muddys the waters, then you have your answer.

Additionally, that's an awfully large room you have to fill with bass. Couple that with it being open to other areas and I suspect the total volume is just sucking the life out of the sub's bass and the LaScala's mid-bass. This could account for why you like the sounds at your A/V dealer. - his rooms are smaller. You may wanna have a chat with the folks at SVS and get their take on what a room like that would need for decent bass. FOR THE RECORD - I am NOT suggesting/endorsing that SVS is the answer!

My gut tells me it's a combination of speaker mis-match, your two subs fighting each other, and your subs just not being able to fill your room. From a tonal perspective, I think you have two paths. The one T2K described and the one Olorin described. In addition, I would look at replacing the two subs with one very good unit from Klipsch, SVS, REL, Velodyne, etc. That would eliminate phasing issues.

Lastly, what ever you do...do not, I repeat, DO NOT look into tube amplification! It is the work of the devil!!

Tom

[DrWho]

Just an idea, but are your mains wired in phase? Try playing some music and swap the + and - on just one speaker with only one end of the wire. Afterwards do you hear an increase or decrease in bass? If there is an increase, then your mains were out of phase, if a decrease then go back to the original. Make sure you do this test with the subwoofer off.

There is another technique to properly tune your subs that doesn't require you purchasing a special CD or other equipment...reverse the polarity of both your mains and then plug in a bass heavy CD. Then have a friend adjust the phase setting on your subwoofer while you sit at the main listening position, and have him turn the phase dial until you are hearing the least amount of bass...you can even turn up the volume on the sub a bit so that you can hear when this happens. When done right, this puts your sub and mains 180 degrees out of phase. Once that's done, reverse the phase of your mains back to normal (unswitch the wires) and now your sub and mains will be perfectly in phase (or at least very close). Make sure you do this with each sub independently and then afterwards you'll need to tweak the volume of both the subwoofers.

[rplace]

I think you are on the right track getting a different center and maybe 3 Heresys across the back. If you want to sell the C-IIs give me a yell. I have two pair of Heresys ...maybe we can work something out.

[Strabo]

I had a very similar set-up, Denon 4802 driving Forte's, for a short time which I will explain later.

Lots of great suggestions here. Especailly, dial in the phase on the subs, which can be very tricky with two subs. Try it with just one sub to see if the second is canceling the bass in the listening position.

Double check the phase on the mains.

See if you can borrow a different DVD player, but I doubt that will make much difference since you are mainly using it as a transport. The Denon 3910 can be had for less. Paid under $900 for mine with the factory warranty.

See if you can home audition an outboard amp.

Do some research on room treatments.

Back to the 4802. Two years ago I had an older Yamaha with Forte's and loved the tone but had upgraditus.

After some short auditioning (in store only), too short really, I brought home a 4802. For the first day or two I marveled at the detail but noticed that I couldn't listen to my beloved Forte's for more than 20 minutes.

This went on for a few weeks while I tryed to convince myself that the Denon needed to break-in, the system needed better placement, needed a better DVD player, needed better wiring, needed a softer room, yadda yadda yadda.

Three weeks in and listening above 75dbs caused serious ear pain. I actually had inner ear pain when not listening.

Finally I decided that the 4802 was the cause of all of my problems and took it back (with in my 30 day return policy) to exchange it for something better. Best move I've made.

After the short time (4 weeks) the 4802 was in my system I can easily say that I have nothing nice to say about it, including the clumsy battery eating remote.

To me, your options are keep the Denon and change everything else, or keep everything else and replace the Denon.

[sunprairie]

Well, worked all afternoon switching speakers around, resetting levels, especially worked on subs and things are sounding much better. Interested though in doing a swap on some heresy's for a beautiful pair of Chorus II's. Would the poster who posted earlier on the 4 heresy's pm me? Thanks for everyone's help.

[Deang]

I can't think of anything worse to push a set of LaScalas with than a HT receiver designed for the mass market, which is primarily made up of those who run itty bitty Bose cubes. Ha! I say sell everything except the LaScalas and the two subs (which I would stack together in the same corner) -- and get a decent processor/preamp and a 2-channel amp. Then find a matching LaScala for the center (or a Cornwall), and use Heresys for the fill speakers. Buy a multichannel amp to drive the center and rears.

There are great deals on the used market, where gear can be picked up in mint condition at a fraction of it's original cost. I would personally avoid eBay, and use www.audiogon.com

Guess I'll crawl back up to 2-channel where I belong.

[sunprairie]

Thanks for the reply. That is eventually what I intend to do as funds allow it. It's not like I don't have enough speakers to sell to at least get started.

Thanks

[Fish]

I think Dean just summed it all up pretty well.

[colterphoto1]

That is one WILD mix of Klipsch speakers, seems you've hit on just about every genre ever made. No wonder it sounds mis-matched in your room. I would agree with Frzninvt first post and Dean's post just before this. If you LOVE your LaScalas (and do the LS only with music test in your listening room for a week or so -just to make sure , and DO CHECK PHASE), and the LS will be your MAIN LR, then the order that things must GO are:

RC7- just doesnt fit in anywhere, no how, no way, I've got one in a box also.metal vs paper cone- just don't mix.

ChorusII for center- sorry, wrong genre, not efficient enough to center for LS (Mike, Drwho would be interested)

Quartets - again another gross mismatch, sell or use the pair as a 2ch in another room in the home.

The sale of RC7 and one ChorusII (how did you get one) gives you funds for a match or near match center speaker which would be LS, Belle, or Cornwall. We're working up plans for the many members looking to build their own single center vertical Cornwall cabinet. Good option as it's close in timbre and efficiency to the LS, but is a little more cabinet placement friendly.

Rears- take your choice, another pair of Corns for rears would be more full range (you mention a lack of bass, how bout two more 15" woofers pumping away for you) or Heresy, which would be run as small in your system. Would need 2 or three depending on surround mode.

I'm not able to comment on the subs, other than to say placement and acoustics are what it's all about.

Have fun and get the speakers right first, more power as part of phase II.

Good listening.

Michael

[johnyholiday]

leavraged buy out

[marksdad]

2 problems, first mismatched speakers, and you should have your speakersup front set to large

[sunprairie]

Thanks,

Already working on a trade with another member on some heresy's for my Chorus II's, and I'll reset the front mains to large again and see what I think. The problem with the Denon is when you set the hz (Crossover) at say 60 hz, as far as I can tell, it sets all speakers the same. Not really sure if I should stay in the 60 range or go to 80 as THX recommends. Maybe some input on this. By the way, pulling the Chorus II's out has been already a great improvement. Loved the Chorus, but just can't seem to make them fit well.

[sunprairie]

Sorry, double post--missed the second page.

Already working on the situation. I'm communicating with another forum member that's looking for Chorus II's and he has some Heresy's he'd like to trade. Shipping may get in the way, but we'll see. I am going to reset my mains to large and set the (Crossover) hz @ 60 and give that a try. Should I be rolling off at a different level? I know THX recommends 80 hz, but don't know if this is where I should be. When I change the level in the Denon, I believe it changes all the speakers regardless of whether they're set to large or small. Weird. Maybe someone has some insight on this. By the way, it really helped to pull the Chorus out of the lineup. Loved the speakers, but just couldn't get them to match.