doctorcilantro Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 I currently use PC output of 32bit/88kHz. I am in the works of transforming my PC into a silent PC (for the second time), to reduce vibration. There will only be 3 hard drives, mounted on rubber grommets, inside the case. No fans for PSU and CPU (watercooled with Reserator). I am trying to understand what causes jitter besides long cables, physical vibration, and inconsistanies in DAC clocks, etc. For those of you using Jitter Killers, do you see a marked improvement. Although my soundcard is a fairly high end card it does have a long 6ft analog cable running to a breakout box that uses 1/4" balanced or unbalanced cables; a positive is that the PC output is easily integrated with my stereo; although my M-Audio 24/96 had rca's directly on the card. Even if you buy a high end cdp people are upgrading them like everything else. Where does it end? I see Denon DVD-2910 mods available for only....1200$ I plan on using my dvd burner as my cdp for a while since I plan to have everything ripped to digital at some point. I would like to get a decent dvd-a, sacd player too, to make things a little easier, but for now I am going to try this and entertain the idea of adding a jitter killer. comments....experiences? Dr. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khorn58 Posted February 23, 2005 Share Posted February 23, 2005 I thought jitter was only a problem with playing cd and dvd not files from your hard drives. I think about 2/3 of modern music is recoded on stock Macs and Custom pc's none have any special hard drive isolation amd most have long cable runms. a good clock can help a lot as well as a good DA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pageadder_page_id=28/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 cheap power supplies, byt the sound of your computer, i would say you don't have a cheap one, but if it came with your case its probably causing some jitter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Wow Andy, Great and informative link - thanks. The 99th generation copy Vs the original is most interesting as I was of the impression it would hardly play at all. Jitter is not cumulative - Bizzare! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 This just proves what I've said before. A computer hard drive is the best transport for digital recordings, when output into a DAC, since the output is locked to the CPU's master clock, which is accurate to an extent that is way beyond the precision that audio demands. So to answer the questions of the original poster -> - don't use the card's onboard DACs - they are not nearly as accurate an an external DAC... Trust me - I've tested it myself. The difference is not just noticeable - it's major. - do use the digital output from the sound card - do use the burner as you wish - do rip the CDs before playing them... - a hard drive is a better source than a CD-ROM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorcilantro Posted February 24, 2005 Author Share Posted February 24, 2005 There are some pretty high end power supplies out there that are fanless w/ no moving parts. I use an M-Audio Delta 44. It doesn't have any digital outputs, just 1/4" TRS. They have a new 24/192 card out that has 1/4" and also some digital outs. Looks like a really great card for the money. In my situation I guess I could benefit from a DAC. I'm surprised though because at the price point what else is an M-Audio Delat 44 trying to accomplish. Ins't the main purpose to provide quality DAC. It's not a preamp with 12 stages in it. I would like to get a DAC unit but I'm stuck with 4/4 analog in/out. Sounds good for now. Maybe someday I'll switch over to a DAC & M-audio 24/192 card and use two digital cables for in/out. DR. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Can someone provide an explanation of the term "jitter" in complete and highly descriptive terms. JJK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 Follow Andy's link. Otherwise - in two words - timing problems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorcilantro Posted February 24, 2005 Author Share Posted February 24, 2005 Now I am getting the upgrade bug.........GREAT *sigh* I think I may sell my Delta 44. I don't do much recording anymore and the M-Audio 192 would allow me to run a mic in when neccessary. I'll run a digital cable to an out board DAC and then into my preamp. For recording I'll stick with an analog balanced XLR output from the preamp an the M-Audio 192. But what if playing back 32bitfloat/192kHz on my PC .....won't a DAC limit or resample that? Is there any way around this? Going direct from card to preamp woul dbe the best but my preamp doesn't have an A/D converter. DR. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minn_male42 Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 the best way to control jitter in your playback system is to use a player and prepro/receiver that has an i-link interconnection... i have heard a setup with a pioneer elite receiver and a pioneer elite player.... the sound improvement compared to using the standard digital coax (and the analog outputs) was quite dramatic!!!.... a pioneer elite DVD/CD/SACD/DVD-audio player is on my list for my next upgrade (my receiver already has the i-link connection) the following article from the pioneer website explains it very well... http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/printer/friendly/0,,2076_4151_20798228,00.html?compName=PIO_ArticleComponent&printComp=PIO_ArticleComponent& here is the text of the article: i.LINK i.LINK connectivity, a.k.a. IEEE1394, is an advanced digital interface that provides jitter-free transmission of audio-even high-resolution DVD-Audio and SACD-between similarly equipped components. Digital Transfer The i.LINK connection can be found on select Elite DVD Players and AV Receivers. Audio content-for example a DVD-Audio recording-is transferred between i.LINK-capable components in a completely digital state, maintaining the original high quality level. Digital Transfer, No Noise Previously, the transfer of audio information required the signal to be converted back and forth between digital and analog, which degraded the signal and resulted in a higher noise level. Plus, up to six analog cables were required for the transfer. One simple digital connection Now, just one digital i.LINK cable is required for high-end digital transmission, replacing those six analog cables. Besides yielding higher quality, i.LINK reduces the "wire maze" behind your components. i.LINK Benefits -Big bandwidth, high-resolution audio signal transfer -Perfect for DVD-Audio and SACD -Content stays digital, for higher signal purity -One digital cable, vs. six analog cables -Also enables two-way communication between similarly-equipped components pioneer, yamaha, denon, sony, onkyo, samsung, sherwood-newcastle, and others all have some equipment available that is equipped with this i-link connection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorcilantro Posted February 24, 2005 Author Share Posted February 24, 2005 My thought is that how bad can the jitter be on a card like the M-Audio 192? Also, if we are playing cd's in cd-rom or dvd-rom drives using the digital method, is there some kind of jitter correction that can be implemented through the playback software. I use the DSP settings of J. River's Media Center to upsample to 32/88. My point is that if we have a PC hard drive based playback system there shoudl be a way to apply some kind of jitter correction. Then if we can reduce vibration and cable lengths wouldn't that also help? DR. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 ---------------- On 2/24/2005 5:11:28 PM doctorcilantro wrote: My thought is that how bad can the jitter be on a card like the M-Audio 192? Also, if we are playing cd's in cd-rom or dvd-rom drives using the digital method, is there some kind of jitter correction that can be implemented through the playback software. I use the DSP settings of J. River's Media Center to upsample to 32/88. My point is that if we have a PC hard drive based playback system there shoudl be a way to apply some kind of jitter correction. Then if we can reduce vibration and cable lengths wouldn't that also help? DR. C ---------------- I think you misunderstood me - if you use a PC hard drive w. digital output, there is virtually no jitter at all - you don't need to reduce it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorcilantro Posted February 24, 2005 Author Share Posted February 24, 2005 Which cards have you personally tested for jitter an dhow, I am curious. thanks Dr. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 When you're playing music off the hard drive and using a digital out, the soundcard doesn't determine the clock, the CPU does, so I don't have to test the jitter of different soundcards. The clock generator of modern CPUs is exquisitely precise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyKubicki Posted February 24, 2005 Share Posted February 24, 2005 ---------------- On 2/24/2005 3:14:27 AM maxg wrote: Wow Andy, Great and informative link - thanks. The 99th generation copy Vs the original is most interesting as I was of the impression it would hardly play at all. Jitter is not cumulative - Bizzare! ---------------- Yes Max, That's one I have to keep reading over and over again to catch the details. Bob Katz is among the best engineers and many of his articles on that site are interesting. They seem to explain how digital recordings can be made so poorly that they send us back to vinyl... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorcilantro Posted February 25, 2005 Author Share Posted February 25, 2005 I understand that, but what DAC's ON cards have you tested for jitter? If I am using a dvd-rom drive for playback through a PC, it is read digitally then the card's DAC does the conversion to analog. Using my HD the card also converts to analog since I am using the 1/4" outputs. My understanding was that cards are locked to the CPU clock. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but I wonder what the measurable jitter specs are for some of the higher end pc cards are. thanks Dr. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorcilantro Posted February 26, 2005 Author Share Posted February 26, 2005 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I have never tested the jitter on different card for the simple reason that I don't use the onboard DACs. I tested the onboard DACs on an Audigy2 and M-Audio Revolution against an external DAC, as well as a DAC in a home theater receiver. In all cases, the sound cards' analog outputs proved to be far inferior to using a digital output into an external DAC. The difference was so apparent, that I now never recommend using analog outputs if sound quality is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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