Al Klappenberger Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 DIY Guys, Here is the design for the 700 Hz extreme-slope crossover network. It is intended for use in the Belle Klipsch or Klipsch LaScala using the Altec 811b 800 Hz "Voice of the Theater" horn and a wide range driver such as the Altec 902. It will NOT work in the Khorn! It was designed for the Klipsch K33 woofer driver which represents 6 Ohms in series with a 1 mHy inductor. Recent tests show that it will operate with minimal degradation into most 8 Ohm woofers however. It is identical to the 600 Hz (ES600T) network except that the crossover frequency is 100 Hz higher. Of course, anyone is welcome to duplicate these networks for HIS OWN USE or for a personal friend. I reserve the right to build them for sale. The design for the ES600T (like the ES700T) has been updated to include bi- wiring (NOT bi-amping) capability by removing two straps from the barrier block. The design may be downloaded from my web site (http://www.alkeng.com/klipsch). The web site has been divided into several sections with a menu on the left. Look for the "dump truck" download icon. Al K. AFTERTHOUGHT: I should remind everybody that the ES700 is only a woofer / squawker crossover (2-way). An additional squawker / tweeter crossover (at 6000 Hz) will be needed to run 3-way using the stock K55 and K77 setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 26, 2005 Author Share Posted February 26, 2005 DIY Guys, I mentioned above that the ES700 network was designed to operate with the Klipsch K33 woofer. Here's a plot (actual measurements) of the complex impedance seen by the amp with 4 different woofer loads. The green curve is the K33 equivalent (6 Ohms in series with 1 mHy voice coil inductance) and clearly the nicest load for the amp. The others loads are not quite as good but still good enough and all are nearly resistive. The crossover frequency moves only about +-3 Hz with the different loads. The crossover loss is also unaffected. The vertical scale says 0 - 1 V/V. This represents 0 - 10 Ohms. The upper plot is the impedance phase. -180 represents a pure capacitive impedance. +180 indicates pure inductance. Zero is a purely resistive load. I test it with these loads: 6 Ohms & 1 mHy <-- Designed for this (green curve). 6 Ohms & 1.6 mHy 8 Ohms & 1.6 mHy 8 Ohms resistive (No inductor). Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Al, Thanks for posting the ES700 design. At some point I'm planning on trying a smaller 2 way using either the K33 (or maybe something else) as a direct radiator with the 811/902 on top. Thanks, Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 26, 2005 Author Share Posted February 26, 2005 Shawn, The ES700T should be fine for that. It was desinged with the Altec 811b horn in mind. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 "It will NOT work in the Khorn! It was designed for the Klipsch K33 woofer driver which represents 6 Ohms in series with a 1 mHy inductor." Al am I missing something here? I thought the K33 was the woofer driver of choice for the Klipschorn, La Scala and Belle Klipsch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 26, 2005 Author Share Posted February 26, 2005 J.4, Yep.. What your's missing is that this one crosses over too high for the Khorn woofer horn. The K33 driver is compatable but the crossover needs to be at 400 Hz for the Khorn. It requires the ES400 network. This is the ES700. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 Hi Al, What happens to your ES crossover if it is used with a Peavey 1504-4 in an FH1 bass horn? The Re is 3.6 ohms and the Le is .6 mH (though my Wavetek measures .412 mH at what sounds like 350 Hz). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 26, 2005 Author Share Posted February 26, 2005 John, I would guess that the ZO plot would fall somewhere between the red curve and the blue one. I would have to try it to see. The red curve is the 8 ohm resistive load and would probably be the worst case for the load you mentioned. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 26, 2005 Author Share Posted February 26, 2005 John, Here's what the computer says about that load. The computer modeling for that parameter is not as good as I would like though. AL K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted February 26, 2005 Share Posted February 26, 2005 I will apologize in advance if you think this is a dumb question. I also am not trying to hijack this thread. Al, Do you have any interest in designing an ES network for the late Cornwall. Is it even possible? jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Sure it's possible, but we can't even get people to commit to buying Cornwall ALKs. I've had 5 or 6 inquiries since I started building them, but after I tell them the price, I don't even get a reply back. People pay around $800 for their Cornwalls, and most just aren't interested in dropping more than half that much on networks for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 JC, Dean has the answer already, HOWEVER.. I think the ES700 should work on the Cornwall as is without any modifications. All that would be needed is to set the correct squawker taps. Of course a tweeter / squawker network would also be needed (just like with the Belle or LaScala) as the ES700 is a 2-way network. Al K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Al, I currently have your DIY ALK's Bi-Amped on Klipschorns and am interested in building your Extreme slope crossovers to use in Bi-Amp config. I use the stock K-401 midrange and JBL 2404H tweeter. Is that possible? If so would you mind in sharing the schematic with me? Also I would like to have the capability to use it as a 3 way crossover in the future by adding the 400Hz point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 ---------------- On 2/26/2005 4:54:53 PM Al Klappenberger wrote: J.4, Yep.. What your's missing is that this one crosses over too high for the Khorn woofer horn. The K33 driver is compatable but the crossover needs to be at 400 Hz for the Khorn. It requires the ES400 network. This is the ES700. Al K. ---------------- Perhaps you should just jit me a little harder with the bat next time, can't beleive I missed that..."and the DUH award goes to..." Thanks Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 Rigma, I will eventually release the ES400 network for the DIY croud too, but for now, I have not built enough of them to be 100% sure the details are nailed down. BUT: You can't bi-amp with the extreme-slope netwroks anyhow! It is not a reasoable configuration. Passive networks like these a connected between a single amp and the speaker. Bi-amping requires the crossover be between the pre-amp and TWO power amps. You would need an ACTIVE crossover with 120 dB / octave slopes. Most are 24 db / octave at best. you can bi-WIRE however. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Al, Sorry I was not as clear as I should have been. I do have an active (2-way) crossover set at 400hz. What I would like to do for now is to use your extreme slope for the crossover between the mid and tweeter only, say at around 5800hz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 Rigma, What you need is my ES5800T network. I don't plan to release that one for DIY becasue the mounting of the inductors is too critical. They all have to be mounted in exactly the right place or it just doesn't work properly! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rigma Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 Al, I am up for it if would consider it. I have an oscilloscope, signal generator, and real time analyzer with direct input, to assist in placement if that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted February 27, 2005 Author Share Posted February 27, 2005 Rigma, What's needed is exact placement of exactly the right inductors. I would actually have to generate a precise drawing with dimensions. Right now I just locate the parts using a paper template. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted February 27, 2005 Share Posted February 27, 2005 " I think the ES700 should work on the Cornwall as is without any modifications. All that would be needed is to set the correct squawker taps. Of course a tweeter / squawker network would also be needed (just like with the Belle or LaScala) as the ES700 is a 2-way network." Is there enough depth in a Cornwall cabinet to mount something like the 902 to the mid-horn using an adapter and try running them two way? Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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