dragonfyr Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 I have no desire to get deeply into this, as it is simply not worth the time, but just because because he has THX Ultra certified speakers, does not imply the need for a THX certified room anymore then using Windows requires an all Microsoft shop or having any other 'uniform' environment! Nor do I necessarily require GMC branded oil in my GMC vehicle simply to provide factory specified uniformity! THX certification does not necessarily assure optimal acoustic design! It simply means that certain minimums are met! I can do that and still not have an optimal balance of factors resulting in less then an optimal room. At worst, minimum standards can be exceeded and a perfectly horrible room still be the sum result. And I, IMHO, don't think that this is the desired goal! ...Just as being ISO certified does Not necessarily insure quality (contrary to many assumptions!). It simply insures that every process is meticulously documented assuring precise repetition of the process! It attempts to insure 'repeatability'. This does Not insure quality! It simply means that the process can repeatedly make a component of whatever quality level is inherent in the documented process - and this does Not automatically imply quality! It leaves open the assumption, trusting that 'you' will see continuous improvement as an active goal! So with THX... Traditional THX rooms, just as with many traditional theater mixes, do not even imply that the surround features are optimally utilized, as the last thing desired in a theater is creating a surround mix with spatial cues accurate enough to prompt one to look away from the screen! In fact, older school mixers eschew even stereo mixes, preferring mono instead! This too can conform to THX standards. So it is often good to define exactly what is desired before blindly assuming that a particular certification provides optimal results! If one feels that GMC branded oil is necessary for a GMC vehicle, that is fine! But I was simply suggesting that before one aspire to a particular standard and all the expense required for conformation, that they be sure that the standard provide the results that they are truly desiring! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olorin Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Never mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Dragon said, "So with THX... Traditional THX rooms, just as with many traditional theater mixes, do not even imply that the surround features are optimally utilized, as the last thing desired in a theater is creating a surround mix with spatial cues accurate enough to prompt one to look away from the screen! In fact, older school mixers eschew even stereo mixes, preferring mono instead!" I humbly dissagree completely. If a door opens say ten feet to my right and slightly behind me and the "demon himself" comes through it... It should sound like it was opened ten feet to my right and slightly behind me.... JUST as the sound mixer placed it there. To assume it makes no difference is wrong. By the way, I have my ht room after the big one at Klipsch headquarters. Approx 17x26 feet. Just a thought, it seems to work pretty well for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 IMHO, Yes it should! And I am just the messenger! But the fact is that this philosophy is NOT universally shared in movie sound mixing as was explained to us in some detail by one of the audio folks now at Lucasfilms working at the Skywalker Ranch who I knew from when he was with Showco and Led Zeppelin in the 60s-70s (I forget his name as its been awhile, but the faces stick in the few remaining brain cells! ;-). I will touch base w/ Bruce Glass (Animal), another LZ/Showco alumnus, and get the guy's name after Bruce returns from GB and the week long Led Zep fanfare the BBC is doing, where is re-mastering some additional unpublished LZ tapes.) Argue with them, but I tend to accept the opinion of the folks at Lucasfilm. And if you have ever had the opportunity to do sound for video, you would know how much the audio folks are treated as redheaded stepchildren! In those environments, like it or not, video is king. And the audio folks are lucky to be allowed into the editing suite! Despite the best comeback in such an environment that I thought summed up the reality quite well!: Music without video is a soundtrack, but video without music is just a security film! Needless to say, the video folks were none too impressed..... And if you lisen to most (with rare exceptions) theatrical release mixes (not necessarily the same as the DVD release mix!), little significant content of interest eminates from the rear speakers. I am sure everyone will know of an exception, but they will be just that, exceptions. The focus is ON the screen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customsteve01 Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 The Audio shop I frequent has a THX certified HT and their deminsions are pretty srange. Front width 16 Back width 19 Front height 11 back height 9 depth 22 These are not exact they are as I remember the salesman telling me They do have stadium style seating with three steps, that explains the ceiling height differance. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 ---------------- On 4/5/2005 3:58:36 PM customsteve01 wrote: The Audio shop I frequent has a THX certified HT and their deminsions are pretty srange. Front width 16 Back width 19 Front height 11 back height 9 depth 22 These are not exact they are as I remember the salesman telling me They do have stadium style seating with three steps, that explains the ceiling height differance. Steve ---------------- Are you sure the back of the room is shorter than the front and not the other way around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
customsteve01 Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Yes I am sure. you walk into the room on the third tier where the back seats are and then step down twice to get to the floor level. The ceiling is level. ------------------------------------------------ / / / / / --------------- / ----------/ ---------------------/ Front back Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 I am working on trying to dig up the THX minimum requirements in terms of measurements and quantifiable acoustic parameters. I had several very interesting conversations today! It should tell you something when they will not provide these minimum standards and then say that if you employ/comply with THX certified standards that these qualities will be established! But they suggest that you send them your blueprints and for a fee they will tell you if they meet the requirements using their own proprietary assessment. Yeah, and if you sign right here, I will then tell you how much the car cost! And oh, while we told you it is "comfortable" and that it "goes fast" and gets "acceptable gas mileage",(never mind how those qualities are determined or verified!), you will of course be very happy! In all fairness, they may employ world class standards that exceed all others. But it bothers me that they will not state these and then refer you to a THX licensed dealer/acoustician/designer who will then insdure that your design meet these standards and provide proof of performance verification of the finished system. Instead it is "sign here first". But as I am far too bullheaded to quit, I am determined to bully a few friends who are certified to certify rooms and systems & a few who are certified to design them and get ahold of what info I can.... Just remember, THX certified is akin to being ISO certified. Adherance to process does not NECESSARILY imply a better result! But the proper and comprehensive attention to basics will. By the way, you might be interested to listen to both the out of print THX version of Dances with Wolves and the current non-THX Dolby Digital version.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 For what its worth, I am still working on getting their specs. THX is determined that they NOT be published... But then, on the other end, I am determined that they be stated, so....don't hold your breath for an imminent post, but we will get the specs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted April 12, 2005 Share Posted April 12, 2005 I am waiting with bated breath... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted April 14, 2005 Share Posted April 14, 2005 it seems like this is going to be pretty smoke and mirrored too. e.g.) We will come to your house and decide what treatments, and or equipment will be neccessary to be a THX certified room. Please do not shoot me.. Everyone is different but you would think if they (THX Certfied techs) praise all of this BS, "someone" would have a rooms a,b,c small budget, medium, large, so all could follow? Wait.. that might take good people and builders out of the field that charge "consulting fees" to do this. Kinda like saying a K horn, for instance, could never be used in a HT because it is not THX Ultra 2 certified? BS! They work fine in mine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psylocke Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 Let me step in for a second and make an observation. The 3000 sq.ft quote is incorrect. The correct number is as follows: THX Ultra2 - 3000 cubic/ft and up (volume) TXH Select - 3000 cubic/ft and lower (volume) My room is 18dx12wx7.8h which = 1684 cubic ft of volume and 216 sq.ft of floor space. I demo'd the Ultra2 speakers at a local dealer in a dedicated room that was roughly 16wx26dx8h which = 3328 cubic/ft and 416 sq.ft. The speakers were connected to a 2007 aragon amp and stage1 pre-pro. The sound was out of this world and I swear brought a tear to my eye. I am now on a quest to upgrade my Reference 35 series setup to the ultra2 setup. My new ultra2 KS-525 rears should be in by tommorrow (I can't wait). I think I will be able to upgrade the front 3 by at least november (funds permitting). My only delema is the sub and which fronts to go with. Klipsch recommends that in a smaller room you use the KL-525's for the fronts instead of the 650's. So I am not sure which ones to go with. The sub requires the amp be purchased seperatly and that more than doubles the price of the sub, so I think I will not be able to upgrade the sub till next year. I just hope my B&W asw 1000 can keep up with the ultra2's. I hope the above info helps clear up any confusion in this forum as I did a lot of research and phone calls to figure this stuff out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyKlipschFan Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 Psylocke Helloooooo The obvious??????? KA 1000 THX Ultra 2 sub amp/controler, and the KW 120 THX Sub(S). Stay in the Ultra 2 Status all round, IMO a plus. These are also front fireing subs, so you can place them behind a skrim or next to where they need to go in the room too. Just a heads up not to overlook it! I use the above system currently with three La Scalas up front and they ROCK! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 6, 2005 Share Posted May 6, 2005 You might even consider going with the subwoofers first...the RF-35 certainly isn't a lacking speaker and is even very similar in design to the ultra series. Of the few reviews I've read, they all felt the 525's were lacking and they all upgraded to the 650's. (and then were happy). I can imagine that it would be very difficult to tweak the crossover transition between the mains and the subs because the 525's drop off fast below 80Hz...You'd bascially have to go with no HPF on the mains and adjust the slope of the subwoofer crossover to match the drop. Just using the straight up crossover on your reciever isn't going to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psylocke Posted May 7, 2005 Share Posted May 7, 2005 Thanks for the advice guys. I think I will go with the 650's for sure (I had the same worry of the 525's lacking). After all I will be going from the RF35's to the 650's. THe 35's to the 525's I think would be too drastict a change in mid's. The subwoofer is going to have to be last simply because of the amplifier having to be purchased seperatly for a heafty price. The sub itself is not a big deal because selling my b&w will nock down the price of the 120 sub by more than half. My new surrounds have arrived yesterday but I will not be able to pick them up untill monday or tuesday (I can't wait). I think I will be able to replace the center by the end of the month or the first couple of weeks of June. The front mains will have to wait untill about end of july or middle of august unless I get some more side work (computer jobs) that I occasionally get before then. THanks for all of the suggestions, I will keep you posted on my progress and how the changes sound in comparison to the 35 series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kde Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 We just purchased a home with a media room - however, the media room has concrete walls that run halfway up before the sheetrock takes over. Has anyone ever heard of a media room having concrete walls? Is this proper? Moved to new thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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