Spkrdctr Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 ---------------- On 3/31/2005 10:19:54 PM sputnik wrote: ---------------- On 3/31/2005 12:52:15 PM damonrpayne wrote: Are the basic absolute measurements a total definition of the system being measured? Perhaps we can't detect everything that is going on. Can the "warmth" of tubes, imaging, or the depth of sound stage be measured and quantified electronically? Is there a way to analytically prove tubes yield a signal that is "warmer and more colored"? - maybe it's a routine measurement. ---------------- Sputnik, yes the tubes can be measured and it is routine. That colored warmer sound is in fact what you are hearing, a sound that has been modified by the tubes to be warmer and more satisfying. Some call it distortion others call it whatever they want. A lot of people like it. Also, those qualities can be reproduced with solid state equipment. It just is not usually done. Everyone likes their music the way they like it. It is not good or bad, just different! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 I agreed with most of the article. I use solid state, but I would never knock tubes. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 ---------------- On 3/31/2005 9:17:39 PM minn_male42 wrote: hey... i just thought it was interesting..... ---------------- Thanks for posting that. I've printed it off for a bit of light reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 the " Warmth" of Tubes ..that everyone seems to talk about is .. simply harmonic distortion .... yes, i have both tube, and SS amps .. i listen to both, really not a lotta difference if the tube amp is properly designed ... can we say without "Bloom " ... another euphimism for "an inadequate power supply " ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 We recently bought a Jolida tube amp because my wife thinks it's pretty. I think the Teac Tripath sounds a little better but the Jolida certainly sounds good. With the rig in the frontroom looks is important and the Jolida looks right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted April 2, 2005 Share Posted April 2, 2005 I don't know what to think, therefor I don't! I just sit back and enjoy the music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 The only absolute truth regarding correct sound reproduction is thst there are no absolute truths. Because what the f%$$ is "correct?" I think we can all agree that a lot of gear, be it speakers, amps, preamps, or digital or analog sources, can sound different than examples of the same general type of gear from a different manufacturer. Example - A McIntosh tube amp sounds different than a Krell amp. What is correct? Who knows?? If there is onbe thing I learned from listening to alot of gear and attending alot of CSO performances, it's that most home audio sounds nothing like what I hear when I attend a live event - for a whole host of reasons such as seat location, building acoustics, the lady sitting in front of you coughs or has big hair, too bright, too detailed, too warm blah blah. Correct sound is what you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 The only absolute truth regarding correct sound reproduction is thst there are no absolute truths. Because what the f%$$ is "correct?" I think we can all agree that a lot of gear, be it speakers, amps, preamps, or digital or analog sources, can sound different than examples of the same general type of gear from a different manufacturer. Example - A McIntosh tube amp sounds different than a Krell amp. What is correct? Who knows?? If there is onbe thing I learned from listening to alot of gear and attending alot of CSO performances, it's that most home audio sounds nothing like what I hear when I attend a live event - for a whole host of reasons such as seat location, building acoustics, the lady sitting in front of you coughs or has big hair, too bright, too detailed, too warm blah blah. Correct sound is what you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 The only absolute truth regarding correct sound reproduction is thst there are no absolute truths. Because what the f%$$ is "correct?" I think we can all agree that a lot of gear, be it speakers, amps, preamps, or digital or analog sources, can sound different than examples of the same general type of gear from a different manufacturer. Example - A McIntosh tube amp sounds different than a Krell amp. What is correct? Who knows?? If there is onbe thing I learned from listening to alot of gear and attending alot of CSO performances, it's that most home audio sounds nothing like what I hear when I attend a live event - for a whole host of reasons such as seat location, building acoustics, the lady sitting in front of you coughs or has big hair, too bright, too detailed, too warm blah blah. Correct sound is what you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted April 4, 2005 Share Posted April 4, 2005 The only absolute truth regarding correct sound reproduction is thst there are no absolute truths. Because what the f%$$ is "correct?" I think we can all agree that a lot of gear, be it speakers, amps, preamps, or digital or analog sources, can sound different than examples of the same general type of gear from a different manufacturer. Example - A McIntosh tube amp sounds different than a Krell amp. What is correct? Who knows?? If there is onbe thing I learned from listening to alot of gear and attending alot of CSO performances, it's that most home audio sounds nothing like what I hear when I attend a live event - for a whole host of reasons such as seat location, building acoustics, the lady sitting in front of you coughs or has big hair, too bright, too detailed, too warm blah blah. Correct sound is what you like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 kev313 the gun went off acidentally 4 times, the rest of ya go ahead an get it off your chest, but i'm not going to change my last Will & Testament Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackmesa Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 kev313, do you know how to use one of these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 I too am a skeptic about many audio myths however I prefer to follow or quote a champion of the cause who is at least authoritative...this guy is a poor excuse for a "myth buster" I have seen others do MUCH better in debunking this same issues... this bone head's view on wires includes the dumbest way I have seen to refute that wires make a difference, in fact he actually lays the groundwork FOR the case that wires make a difference...."The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies." - he just described a circuit, the millions of variations possible in R, L and C can and do cause variation in frequency response (as one possible measure) many tests have shown that a variety of wires measure differently in R, L and C so he just shot himself in the foot... His take on tube amp; "Tubes are great for high-powered RF transmitters and microwave ovens but not, at the turn of the century, for amplifiers, preamps, or (good grief!) digital components like CD and DVD players." why? "Even the worlds best-designed tube amplifier will have higher distortion than an equally well-designed transistor amplifier" -yup this guy really knows his stuff! this subjective comparison without specific reference is about as "lo-cal" as one can get...ask some real amplifier designers about that statement and see what they say... why bother talking about other points this guy makes? he could not win a high school debate...there are FAR better discussions about wires, tubes, etc. published by people who take the time to explore the technology and science behind these issue, why waste time on a wanna-be? warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 Tony, "...there are FAR better discussions about wires, tubes, etc. published by people who take the time to explore the technology and science behind these issue," If you read though many of the back issues of 'The Audio Critic' you will find he has gone through the science in numerous issues over the years. The article referenced above is a summary of his position, not his entire explanation of it. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted April 5, 2005 Share Posted April 5, 2005 shawn, I have not read back issues, I was just commmenting on the article posted. that article was crap, perhaps his earlier, sicentific attempts were better, I will see if I can find something he has written that is not claptrap. thanks, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted April 6, 2005 Share Posted April 6, 2005 Blackmesa - Welcome to the forum. Kiss my a$$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwm Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 ---------------- On 4/5/2005 11:51:12 AM sunnysal wrote: I too am a skeptic about many audio myths however I prefer to follow or quote a champion of the cause who is at least authoritative...this guy is a poor excuse for a "myth buster" I have seen others do MUCH better in debunking this same issues... this bone head's view on wires includes the dumbest way I have seen to refute that wires make a difference, in fact he actually lays the groundwork FOR the case that wires make a difference...."The simple truth is that resistance, inductance, and capacitance (R, L, and C) are the only cable parameters that affect performance in the range below radio frequencies." - he just described a circuit, the millions of variations possible in R, L and C can and do cause variation in frequency response (as one possible measure) many tests have shown that a variety of wires measure differently in R, L and C so he just shot himself in the foot... His take on tube amp; "Tubes are great for high-powered RF transmitters and microwave ovens but not, at the turn of the century, for amplifiers, preamps, or (good grief!) digital components like CD and DVD players." why? "Even the world’s best-designed tube amplifier will have higher distortion than an equally well-designed transistor amplifier" -yup this guy really knows his stuff! this subjective comparison without specific reference is about as "lo-cal" as one can get...ask some real amplifier designers about that statement and see what they say... why bother talking about other points this guy makes? he could not win a high school debate...there are FAR better discussions about wires, tubes, etc. published by people who take the time to explore the technology and science behind these issue, why waste time on a wanna-be? warm regards, tony ---------------- The list of people in the audio world Peter Aczel associates with reads like a who's who of audio....The list was, as mentioned, a summary of his viewpoint and the research of others over time. Dismissive name calling doesn't lend credibity to your viewpoint----actually I'm rather shocked as your many postings dont seem to reflect that type of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangele Posted April 8, 2005 Share Posted April 8, 2005 Hmmmm. As with anything, sound is in the ears of the beholder. I am happy listening to one of my Marantz receivers as well as one of my many restored tube systems. The bottom line is that many of us who are into audio spend our entire lives in the quest for the sonic Holy Grail. I do believe that a lot of what is sold as the end all in audio is nothing short of blue smoke and mirrors, but you must let your own ears decide. Enter into this hobby with an open mind and you have a much better chance of finding the ultimate system. But be realistic. Do A/B comparisons and blind fold tests. You would be amazed at how one can convince one's self that a system is great because one is unwilling to admit that they have possibly made a mistake in judgement. Since I service, design and build both hi-fi and guitar amplifiers, I have had the opportunity to hear a LOT of different gear. It is rare to find something I can not live with. Some sound better then others to me, but that is just my opinion. I agreed with a lot of this article. I also felt that a bit of it fell short of reality. Bill B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 I am dismissive because anyone can produce a list of myths and a concurrent list of "experts" who agree with him, in the end I learned nothing from the article posted, I just saw a position paper. the list of proponents of tube amplification, wires as circuits, etc. is JUST as long and prestigious...so we end up with three pages of lo-cal reading. I prefer articles that have substance and try to fully explore issues, so my post was in reaction to the great contrast between this article and others I have read that WERE interesting and informative. From time to time I have posted such articles to assist fellow b-boarders decide for themselves about these issues, I try NOT to post empty fluff. IMHO my criticism of this article is within the bounds of normal discourse, not a tirade. warm regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthurs Posted April 9, 2005 Share Posted April 9, 2005 Mad me laugh out loud Kev ---------------- On 4/6/2005 7:06:52 AM kev313 wrote: Blackmesa - Welcome to the forum. Kiss my a$$. ---------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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