mmiles Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Looking at the following: Cary Audio 303-300 Musical Fidelity A5 CD Player Ayre CX-7 What do you 2 channel experts think? How close will I get to separate DAC and transport quality with either of these models? Regards, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 I think that a cheap player/decent DAC combo will give you a lot more bang for the buck than an expensive CD player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cueman Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 I also would be interested in some suggestions. What are you folks out there using as far as player/DAC combo's? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 I am using a digital out from a PC into an MSB Link III DAC that I bought on audiogon for $250 or so. I tried it side by side with a $500+ denon player and my setup seemed to sound better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cueman Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 So is it correct to assume that the player is not as important in quality as the DAC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Not AS important yes, but it doesn't mean it ISN'T important. SPDIF connection is not bidirectional, and isn't really bit-perfect (it almost is, over short runs). A CD player that produces a crappy bitstream will obviously affect the output negatively. Since jitter, and other timing errors, are not present in the bitstream when it's read into computer memory before being output, a computer is the ideal transport... not to mention a jukebox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieboy Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 I'm thinking of going with the best player I could afford. I'm shopping right now also and heard a Arcam 23T stand alone and it smoked the cd/dac combos I heard. Ive had the Adcom , CAL Audio labs, and msb dac's but hearing the Arcam changed my thoughts on having to have a dac. I'm still not sure what I'm going to get though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 16, 2005 Share Posted May 16, 2005 Consider this: You can build a full media PC in a small, media-component-type-case, one that includes a powerful CPU, large hard drive, sound card with an optical output, even a DVD-burner, for $430. I know this because I just built one for a friend. There would be enough hard drive space to hold most of your music collection at your fingertips (no more changing CDs) or you could add $50 and get an even larger hard drive that could hold hundreds of CDs worth. This computer even includes a universal flash memory reader that would let you manage things such as the your digital photos. Add a DAC of your choice and you'll have a far superior music delivery system to any player. Check out my detailed parts list here: http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=65630 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmiles Posted May 18, 2005 Author Share Posted May 18, 2005 Very intersting... Can you give the spec of the homebrew PC and what DAC/s you might suggest please? Regards, mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beesley Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Quick question on using music stored on the hard drive. Do you think there would be much of an audible difference vs. using the actual CD for playback? As long as the music is copied at a higher than average bit rate, say 192/kbps, would one be able to enjoy the same quality of sound reproduction. I'm asking because it seems like a good inexpensive alternative. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erukian Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 mmiles, THE best and pretty much only DAC's I would recommend are the Benchmark DAC1 or the Apogee Mini Dac. As far as transports go, the only thing you really need to worry about is jitter, and the Benchmark DAC1 is known for being able to eliminate 99.8% of all jitter from any source. I would just get a recommended multi-cd changer deck as a transport, and hook up the Benchmark/Apogee DAC's to it. That'll give your speakers more fidelity than their used to Beesley, MP3 isnt considered an "audiophile" sound codec. If your looking to playback audio off a PC you want to use a lossless codec. If you have hundreds of CD's then that can fill a hard-disk, so you might want to try OGG vorbis @ 256kbps average, even the iTunes AAC is really much better than MP3 and that codec at 256 is also cd-transparent. MP3 is an older technology, and it was made to just be am means to an end, not as a music storage technology, therefore it suffers from stuff like pre-echo or sibilance. Of all the codec's i just mentioned, AAC, OGG Vorbis, Flac is the best. You can use a program like Exact Audio Copy, then extract the .WAV's to your hard-disk, then use the Flac Frontend at flac.sf.net. That way you can guarantee 100% audio reproduction. I can go on for pages on the do's and don'ts of PC audio. The best thing you can do for starts, is buy a big hard drive, say 100-200GB, buy the Apogee mini DAC, hook it up with it's supplied USB cable. PC's are dirty sound sources because they use switching power supply's that arent designed for audiophile equipment, by using the Apogee you eliminate that whole bottleneck. Then you can take your PC/Mac and rip everything off your cd's Flac, when you play it back in a good program like foobar2000 that can do gapless playback and supports flac out of the box. You can then just enjoy listening to your entire CD collection without the hassle of putting in and taking out CD's or worrying about scratching them, cause they can stay pristine in their cases while you use your cool jukebox on your PC to switch from any song on any of your albums -Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 ---------------- On 5/18/2005 10:31:41 AM Beesley wrote: Quick question on using music stored on the hard drive. Do you think there would be much of an audible difference vs. using the actual CD for playback? As long as the music is copied at a higher than average bit rate, say 192/kbps, would one be able to enjoy the same quality of sound reproduction. I'm asking because it seems like a good inexpensive alternative. Thanks. ---------------- There is no longer any need to store music using lossy, compressed file formats. With prices of hard drives being so low, you can allow yourself to store music either as uncompressed raw .WAV files (~550MB/album) or as losless compression using .FLAC (~400MB/album). For example, a 160GB hard drive could be had for about $90 nowadays, and one would fit nearly 300 uncompressed albums using .WAV or 400 albums using .FLAC If you really must use compression, opt for 320kbit Ogg Vorbis. Never ever ever use MP3s. At 320kbit Vorbis, I have a lot of trouble telling them from the original, and on most recordings I simply can't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 ---------------- On 5/18/2005 9:08:17 AM mmiles wrote: Very intersting... Can you give the spec of the homebrew PC and what DAC/s you might suggest please? Regards, mm ---------------- Go with the Benchmark DAC, like people are suggesting here. I use an MSB Link III and it's sufficient for me. As for the specs, check out the thread url I posted above - it has the detailed part/price list with direct links to Newegg.com where you can buy the said parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 From all I've read around the web the DAC's are pretty great. It's my understanding a Benchmark and my #2900 would make a world of difference. A side by side of my #2900 with my old Denon carousel didn't make a huge difference for me. Oh no, not another upgrade!....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erukian Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Speedball, it's pretty much universally agreed that the Benchmark/apogee dac's are SO revealing of detail that they WILL expose a crappy recording and make it sound like dog-poo. They make NO effort to hide any sort of mistakes. They'll make a great recording sound even better, an okay one sound great, and a horrible one sound better but you'll hear every detail of how horribly it was recorded/mastered. A lot of 80's music has that issue. the upgade to the Benchmark/Apogee is a step that you wont need to take again while you own CD's. By upsampling all of the audio through it to 24/192, it pretty much will give you the cleanest/purest output you can ask for. -Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperfectcircle25 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 All three are excellent players, you wont be able to do any better for the price with a seperate transport/DAC. You wuld have to spend considerably more to beat these players. The MF A5 may be best with klipsch since it uses tubes in the output stage which should give a bit of warmth. The Ayre player is a little dry sounding. The Cary is also a great player with a warmer sound. It really deopends on what you like best I would go listen to them all and see what you like. Another few to check out are the Naim CD5x esp All of these are great players you wont be disapointed.ecially if your into rock music and also the Arcam cd33. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imperfectcircle25 Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 I think most companies these days are shying away to the seperate transport/DAC. Since it has been established that jitter has alot to do with sound quality I think a one box player is a better solution. If you look at thehigh end digital stuff out today a majority of it is single box players. I think at the price you looking at ($3000) your gonna be hard pressed to find a transport and DAC. Most really good transports and DACs cost almost #k each. The only way I would reccomend a DAC is if your using an inexpensive or older player and want to get better sound, then your best bet is to get yourself one of the nice $500-$1000 budget DACs that uses current technology. This most likely wont compete with the players you are considering, but its a good way to get good sound on a budget if your player is old or not so good(most DVD players and inexpensive cd players). Stick to the players you are looking at they are all very good, and dont forget the source is the second mosyt important compnent in youe system some will argue its the most important, but I still say speakers are most important. Remeber garbage in equals garbage out. Dont skimp on your source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 The only one box player I would add to the mix is the Jolida. If your price point can hit the Benchmark DAC ($ 900) I would give it a try. Poor man way out. Buy MSB LINK II (outboard upsampling) or III (internal upsampling card). Used for $ 450 or much less. Most MSB owners I have communicated with say transport has little effect; I would not use a DVD player with all the greater potential for jitter. Home mod the unit for EMI and resonance control. -Sheild power supply -Sheild DAC chip -dampen case and caps and circuit board -dampen transport mechanism -ferrite core on input of power cord -separate power filtering for digital and analog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beesley Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Joe, Meuge OOPH, I guess Im a little behind on the power curve. I initially stayed with strait-up audio components like CD/DVD-A/SACD players, receivers, speakers, separates etc; I guess integration of the media center is becoming an inevitable resource in this hobby. Ive heard so much hype about mp3 I didnt realized it was not on par with newer technology. I just bought Roxio Easy media Creator 7.5 for creating/editing DVDs and I noticed a .wav option for copying CDs, is that what I should be looking for? Also if I store music as .wav files would using the supplied Sonic Cineplayer that came with Roxio 7.5 be fine or are there other affordable programs out there that would be better for opening the files? Thanks, would have replied earlier but I had to leave for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meuge Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 ---------------- On 5/18/2005 2:41:31 PM Beesley wrote: Joe, Meuge OOPH, I guess I’m a little behind on the power curve. I initially stayed with strait-up audio components like CD/DVD-A/SACD players, receivers, speakers, separates etc; I guess integration of the media center is becoming an inevitable resource in this hobby. I’ve heard so much hype about mp3 I didn’t realized it was not on par with newer technology. I just bought Roxio Easy media Creator 7.5 for creating/editing DVDs and I noticed a .wav option for copying CDs, is that what I should be looking for? Also if I store music as .wav files would using the supplied Sonic Cineplayer that came with Roxio 7.5 be fine or are there other affordable programs out there that would be better for opening the files? Thanks, would have replied earlier but I had to leave for a while. ---------------- My recommendation for the best program to rip CDs into files is actually a free open-source program called CDEx. http://cdexos.sourceforge.net/ As far as burning CDs and DVDs go, I have to tell you that your decision to go with Roxio was probably not the best one. In my experience, Roxio's software is buggy and their customer support is nonexistent. By far the best commercial burning utility is Nero Burning ROM. http://www.nero.com/ By far the best program for the playback of music files is Foobar2000, in my experience. It's another free, open-source program, which incorporates some amazing features. Most importantly, it gives you great control of any signal alterations in the path. http://www.foobar2000.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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