texxas guy Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 First, I tried a search on this but got nothing. When treating a room, what are the main differences when you are treating a "dedicated HT" versus a room where you do both, ie..theater and music? I currently use my system about 50% for each. I guess I am looking for what might be a good compromise for both. I am talking about an existing room, not one being built. Thx, Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 ---------------- On 5/20/2005 4:30:52 PM texxas guy wrote: First, I tried a search on this but got nothing. When treating a room, what are the main differences when you are treating a "dedicated HT" versus a room where you do both, ie..theater and music? I currently use my system about 50% for each. I guess I am looking for what might be a good compromise for both. I am talking about an existing room, not one being built. Thx, Larry ---------------- Good question. There are plenty of brighter people on the forum than I but I would say look at www.truesoundcontrol.com at least as a start. They offer advise and sell the Auralex products, which I learned about here and actually use. Your smart to think about room treatments, as they usually makes a big difference if done correctly. IMO the same treatment would work for both. Perhaps you need to worry more about bass treatments since HT tends to be more demanding in that area, but it should not negatively impact music if done correctly. I tried to follow the LEDE philosophy, but the site will advise you as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 Very little, if any. You are dealing with a small acoustical space, the primary distinguishing feature being that it lacks a reverberant sound field and room modes become a more significant issue 'more quickly'. Other then that, the biggest issue you might choose to focus on is that theater is more dependent upon intelligibility and the spoken word, rendering the 800 - 2K frequency passband especially important. ...That and explosions. And at the risk of being sarcastic, it is rather a similar distinction as between rap and music (well, except in rap the words are best ignored...) Oh well, perhaps I don't have anything nice to say about rap! Kidding aside (was I kidding?), for a dedicated HT room the basics regarding "intelligibility" and the time domain become pre-eminent where they are not as critical as with music. I guess my first question would be what the purpose of the room was... Personally I would treat the room as if it were for both dedicated music and video playback. But if someone was paying, it would be up to them to define exactly what they desired, and it can most likely be achieved...and the room could be more greatly optimized for vocal intelligibility (up to that of a 'conference room' if desired). But the issue of this distinction is rather moot unless you are prepared to bring in someone adept with acoustical analysis. And simply loading the room with absorption and diffusion, especially as part of some generic kit, or running about with an SPL meter and RTA will not achieve accurate desired results... Which begs the question: If folks are willing to spend a grand on magical cables, and several grand on turntables to listen to 20 year old commercial pressings, one wonders why they will not spend a grand on having the room professionally analysed and treated????????? Has ANYONE done this? Or has the budget for cables precluded this? Oh, and to vent on one more issue that has become very popular of late in 'high priced' receivers and subs - including those of Velodyne (who should know better -and do if you talk to the right folks!- but the market pressure effects even them!)! The use of a microphone to 'sample' the room and to feedback an inverted response to 'flatten' the room response is not only an OLD idea come back to haunt us in the form of an 'exotic' tuning method, it does NOT work any more then simply bringing in an EQ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 ---------------- On 5/20/2005 5:07:39 PM dragonfyr wrote: Very little, if any. You are dealing with a small acoustical space, the primary distinguishing feature being that it lacks a reverberant sound field and room modes become a more significant issue 'more quickly'. Other then that, the biggest issue you might choose to focus on is that theater is more dependent upon intelligibility and the spoken word, rendering the 800 - 2K frequency passband especially important. ...That and explosions. And at the risk of being sarcastic, it is rather a similar distinction as between rap and music (well, except in rap the words are best ignored...) Oh well, perhaps I don't have anything nice to say about rap! http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif"> Kidding aside (was I kidding?), for a dedicated HT room the basics regarding "intelligibility" and the time domain become pre-eminent where they are not as critical as with music. I guess my first question would be what the purpose of the room was... Personally I would treat the room as if it were for both dedicated music and video playback. But if someone was paying, it would be up to them to define exactly what they desired, and it can most likely be achieved...and the room could be more greatly optimized for vocal intelligibility (up to that of a 'conference room' if desired). But the issue of this distinction is rather moot unless you are prepared to bring in someone adept with acoustical analysis. And simply loading the room with absorption and diffusion, especially as part of some generic kit, or running about with an SPL meter and RTA will not achieve accurate desired results... Which begs the question: If folks are willing to spend a grand on magical cables, and several grand on turntables to listen to 20 year old commercial pressings, one wonders why they will not spend a grand on having the room professionally analysed and treated????????? Has ANYONE done this? Or has the budget for cables precluded this? http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif"> http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif"> Oh, and to vent on one more issue that has become very popular of late in 'high priced' receivers and subs - including those of Velodyne (who should know better -and do if you talk to the right folks!- but the market pressure effects even them!)! The use of a microphone to 'sample' the room and to feedback an inverted response to 'flatten' the room response is not only an OLD idea come back to haunt us in the form of an 'exotic' tuning method, it does NOT work any more then simply bringing in an EQ! ---------------- You must be fun at partys, the guests run for the friggin exits. We need to get you an editor, cause life is too short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelA Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 ---------------- On 5/20/2005 5:07:39 PM dragonfyr wrote: Very little, if any. You are dealing with a small acoustical space, the primary distinguishing feature being that it lacks a reverberant sound field and room modes become a more significant issue 'more quickly'. Other then that, the biggest issue you might choose to focus on is that theater is more dependent upon intelligibility and the spoken word, rendering the 800 - 2K frequency passband especially important. ...That and explosions. And at the risk of being sarcastic, it is rather a similar distinction as between rap and music (well, except in rap the words are best ignored...) Oh well, perhaps I don't have anything nice to say about rap! http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif"> Kidding aside (was I kidding?), for a dedicated HT room the basics regarding "intelligibility" and the time domain become pre-eminent where they are not as critical as with music. I guess my first question would be what the purpose of the room was... Personally I would treat the room as if it were for both dedicated music and video playback. But if someone was paying, it would be up to them to define exactly what they desired, and it can most likely be achieved...and the room could be more greatly optimized for vocal intelligibility (up to that of a 'conference room' if desired). But the issue of this distinction is rather moot unless you are prepared to bring in someone adept with acoustical analysis. And simply loading the room with absorption and diffusion, especially as part of some generic kit, or running about with an SPL meter and RTA will not achieve accurate desired results... Which begs the question: If folks are willing to spend a grand on magical cables, and several grand on turntables to listen to 20 year old commercial pressings, one wonders why they will not spend a grand on having the room professionally analysed and treated????????? Has ANYONE done this? Or has the budget for cables precluded this? http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif"> http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/images/smilies/9.gif"> Oh, and to vent on one more issue that has become very popular of late in 'high priced' receivers and subs - including those of Velodyne (who should know better -and do if you talk to the right folks!- but the market pressure effects even them!)! The use of a microphone to 'sample' the room and to feedback an inverted response to 'flatten' the room response is not only an OLD idea come back to haunt us in the form of an 'exotic' tuning method, it does NOT work any more then simply bringing in an EQ! ---------------- Words,Words,Words.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Sorry if I used any big words. You're certainly welcome to stop reading at any point. And here is 'one of them' kits for you since this stuff is so 'kompleekated'. http://aes.harmony-central.com/115AES/Content/MSR/PR/Studio-Panel.html http://aes.harmony-central.com/115AES/Content/MSR/PR/Studio-Panel.html'> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodger Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 I see dragonfyr's point. Where I would make sure of emphasis beyond the spoken word in an HT set up is the Extended low bass that is utilized in explosions, but not in the musical set up. It is good to look at your room size and see if you can maximize it for both. If not, have a setting for two channel when listening to music, then all channels for HT. What dragonfyr wrote may seem like just words but read it several times and the meaning and definitions are clear. It's nice to compress answers into easy compartments, but there are some times when the question asked can use a broader derfinition. This coming from one that attended The Eastman School of Music for Recording Engineering and not meant to put anyone down or question anyone's intelligence. Believe me, a full study in sound, definition, theory, Engineering and combining all of these components could make you run. Then add Physics on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacksonbart Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 Far be it from me to question any ones intelligence here, I was certainly not trying to do that. I dont have a problem with big words; I am not ashamed if I read a word I dont know the meaning of to look it up in a dictionary, just increases my own vocabulary. I would also say I dont disagree with what you are saying here. I do think however you would be much more effective at getting your viewpoint across if you stuck more succinctly to the point of discussion, as opposed to meandering. I think that is were you loose some people. As you correctly stated any viewer can stop reading when ever they want, but I would think to be effective you would want the viewer to want to read the entire post. Anyway enjoy your weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texxas guy Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 Whoa! I didn't mean to open a can of worms here with my post. Obviously, some of you are much more schooled in the art of acoustics than I. Maybe I was a little to broad in my original question. I guess what I am trying to do is get some guidance on what I can do to my existing room without going overboard financially, or without bringing in an acoustic engineer. I don't expect perfection, I just want to get a bit more out of what I currently have. The room size is 12.5'W x 16'L x 10'H. Drywall with carpet. Will probably be putting in one row of 4 Coaster Studio theater seats. My equipment is: Rotel 1095 Amp Rotel 1066 Processor Fronts: KLF-20 Center: RC-3 Surrounds: RS-3 Subwoofer: JBL 125 watt(Next on upgrade wish list) Sony DVD player 2-Sony 400 disc Cd chgrs. Please comment pro or con, on what you might suggest in the way of treating the room for a good balance soundwise between HT and music. By the way, I love this forum, even though I have not posted much. Thx, Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScorpsFan Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 texxas guy, Thanks for asking the question! The answers you are getting are helping me also. And dragonfyr, jacksonbart and dodger, thanks for pointing us in the right direction, that's what this forum is all about. Best of luck with your HT and music set-up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 ---------------- On 5/20/2005 4:30:52 PM texxas guy wrote: First, I tried a search on this but got nothing. When treating a room, what are the main differences when you are treating a "dedicated HT" versus a room where you do both, ie..theater and music? I currently use my system about 50% for each. I guess I am looking for what might be a good compromise for both. I am talking about an existing room, not one being built. ---------------- For this existing room, are we talking about one main listening position or several? And where if any are the other listening positions located and how important is good sound for them? Also, is this a dedicated listening room or do we need to compensate for WAF and all that? When doing music, we always talk about having a live front and a dead rear. I suppose it makes sense considering all the sound is coming from the front and it sounds wierd when reflections hit you from the back wall. Though I feel this would work for HT as well, there are some that say otherwise (I believe sfogg is one of them?). You might find some posts in the architectural forum if you turn off the filter (and allow old posts to show up). I believe the reasoning behind the opposite for HT (dead front, live rear) is that ambience in the mix is usually recorded in the rear channels (so no need for the front to be live). Because you'll be doing a room for both, it would be important to avoid making any side of the room too dead because that sounds more unnatural than a room that is slightly too bright. Because you're in an already existing room, I would suggest beginning with things that don't sound right to you. Every room is different and heck, everyone has different tastes so we should begin with what you want to accomplish. For starters, correcting the bass response would be the best place to start because it will be the same for both scenarios and everybody likes more bass. If you play some bass heavy music and walk around the room, you'll notice how drastically it changes...especially in the corners where bass tends to build up. The reflections of the bass around the room can cause certain frequencies to become out of phase and cancel out sound at the main listening position. Putting bass traps in the corners absorbs the reflections causing the cancellations, thus effectively cancelling the cancelling effect. Another thing to consider is treating the early reflection points. These are the locations on the wall where if you put a mirror, you would see the speaker in the mirror. For let's say the right main, you will have a location on the cieling, the right wall, AND the left wall. These locations can be treated with either absorbtion or diffusion depending on what kind of sound you want. Absorbtion tends to deaden the sound whereas diffusion keeps everything live. Using our right speaker analogy, I personally like to use diffusion on the right wall, absorbtion on the cieling and on the left wall. The nice thing about this is that the absorbtion areas on the side walls are behind the diffusion panels for the speaker on the other side so it doesn't really deaden the sound at all. The curved masonite panels are a great application for diffusion in this case and also happen to be very cheap to build. Just about any normal acoustic panel will work for the absorbtion (some will even combine both methods into one panel). Early reflection points can be treated the same way for every speaker in the room and it would probably be best to map out a quick diagram and get an idea of what you want to do in areas of overlap (if you have any). Just keep in mind to always use a broadband approach...always treat a lot of frequencies at once and try to avoid treating very narrow frequency bands because they are much harder to get right and can quickly sound very unnatural (I'm assuming here that we won't be renting fancy equipment or paying professionals to play with your room). After this you're pretty much done and you'll find yourself constantly tweaking things around. One very important thing to keep in mind is to only do one treatment at a time and listen with open ears. Perhaps get a game plan going and then limit yourself to one treatment a week and determine for yourself if you're hearing improvements in the sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texxas guy Posted May 21, 2005 Author Share Posted May 21, 2005 ---------------- On 5/21/2005 11:22:44 AM DrWho wrote: For this existing room, are we talking about one main listening position or several? And where if any are the other listening positions located and how important is good sound for them? Also, is this a dedicated listening room or do we need to compensate for WAF and all that? The most important seating position will be the two center chairs in the row of 4. 90% of the time it is just the wife and me using this room. Obviously, I like to go in and crank it up with music when she's not home or otherwise occupied. And yes, unfortunately, I am dealing with the dreaded WAF, so anything I do will have to be at least somewhat aesthetically pleasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 You might find the explanation of the LEDE concept intersting and informative. It is posted as an attachment in the following thread approximately half way through. http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=63588&sessionID={70C86C64-961B-4705-AC46-91FB44171869} Regarding tha larger issue regarding the role of acoustical treatment: (Warning: I have already exceeded the allowed word count and the attention span of far too many. And I may have used one or two forbidden polysyllabic (Big!) words! So you are forewarned NOW. You are of course free to move to another thread or entry. Id hate for anyone to get halfway into this diatribe and discover it at that point. Oh, and for those you dont catch my ample sense of humor, well, then dont smile. Bye. You'll just have to imagine the emoticon of me waving )<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> My initial point was that a small acoustic space would normally be treated the same for music and HT/voice + LFs. And while a few here conduct word counts and believe all issues can be resolved with a grunt and a scratch and a perfunctory "put it there", some issues are more complex. But I expanded the concept in that it was not necessarily the only option, confusing many! (...and with the exception of the many churches with the ever-popular concave prosceniums designed by architects enamored with their compasses, thus creating a focal point 20 feet in front of the alter exhibiting up to an 18dB GAIN, and the choirs adapting to the acoustical anomalies by learning to sing only hymns with tempos supported by the slap back!...) It IS possible to fine tune these environments. Beyond the distinctions many of you even suspect. But that is beyond what most want to address, or even acknowledge. And this topic inevitably bogs down with conflicting camps (often simultaneously) claiming that 1) it's all snake oil anyway, and besides acoustics are far too complex (or the humorous "calculus is flawed") debate; or 2) that we simply want to do something easy, to know what medicine will cure you, without going to the trouble to actually determine the actual problem! And ironically, so many who claim that acoustics is far too complex to understand readily ascribe to the generic shotgun approach to solving it. Or even more commonly run for the overly simplistic SPL meter or EQ! And if anyone dares to suggest a more comprehensive solution, the other side screaming snake oil and burn the witch, invariably pile on. Thus this site still treats acoustical analysis as the proverbial red-headed stepchild that we say is important, all the while treating the issue with 'intuitive' homebrew analysis (and an RTA does nothing more then this - it gives you a measure of the net result, but NO information as to the component issues) and treatment (bass traps, absorption, diffusion (I mention this term only because the word comes up now and again but is seldom ever actually employed, although it is perhaps the most important 'tool') and simply moving speakers around, and the ever popular idea that simple room dimensions will solve these issues. And instead of actually doing the analysis and actually identifying the specific anomalies and resolving those specific anomalies, we simply want to 'do something, but not too complicated'. Well thats fine. And I can be a smart aleck and suggest solving the issues by suggesting new interconnects (very expensive exotic ones!), tubes, polypropylene vs. Teflon caps (etc.), &/or a more expensive turntable. And if I do so, many will become upset. But that is exactly what we do each day. Do these changes have potential impact? Sure! But we choose to focus on 'smaller' solutions having a much more limited ROI then on the more fundamental issues such as acoustics. Perhaps it is because they are issues upon which we have a better grasp, or they are more easily affected within our means. But nevertheless, we choose to focus on aspects with a (generally) smaller ROI then acoustics. And NONE of them address the issue of the acoustical anomalies. And perhaps it is because most seem to think that unless they are able to design and build a room from scratch, that nothing can be done. And this is incorrect. And can we actually address the acoustical issues? Of course! And one need not imply the Russ Berger Design Group to do so. But there are good reasons for doing that (provided you have a large budget!) because the results are dramatic. And if you desire, here is their phone number: 972-661-5222. But, can you simply answer the question of room anomalies or room design with a simple generic answer? I wish! But it is frustrating to hear the continual drone of "it's too complicated", or that "it's snake oil", or that "calculus is flawed"(and I can dig up the source of That one!) regarding room acoustics, all the while we enter into the inevitable weekly debate over "which cable is best", "What subwoofer should I buy", or "How do I fix the terrible sound in my listening room after I have changed the cables, caps, color of the curtains, my brand of beer and upgraded the cartridge wiring on my $18K Basis Debut Signature turntable?" It is me. I admit it. I simply have this silly general idea that, especially for so many who have so much to share here - and there is indeed a wealth of knowledge here! - that we don't seem to achieve an elevated sense of awareness sufficient to help folks who are unaware of many of the options. Even if it is to present a consensus of the divergent schools of thought. It would be nice if we could build an index of FAQs for reference by the new and experienced alike. (Heavens knows this search tool is a pain. It is the classic example of having a tool to help you find your lost item, as long as you know where you lost it!) And for many issues, it IS possible to make some general guidelines sufficient to help most with basics. After all, cables and their behavior do not generally vary greatly. But we seem unable to address this issue even with regards to cables. But I get a kick (and a pain) from watching how acoustical analysis is treated either as witchcraft, or a subject to be dismissed as far to complex and misunderstood, or solved by generic Wal-Mart kits. But unfortunately, acoustics are specific to the environment. And acoustical variables shift dependent upon whether the space is acoustically large or small, and by the desired use. Yes, before others start jumping up and down, a few shotgun treatments can be suggested, just as I can give you a list of the 10 most commonly prescribed prescriptions designed to cure whatever ails you. Or you can do nothing and perhaps it will magically cure itself. Or you can crawl around the room and discover the best spot to put your chair. Yes, bass traps are a simple solution (to but one issue) employed correctly. And some basic absorption/diffusion can be employed without radically screwing things up (but more often moves issues around without actually resolving them).It would just be nice if the architectural segment became something other then a section for describing the color of the curtains, or a thread simply for the niftiest seats with the remote car starters (hey, for those in the far North, I KNOW they are handy!) - Even if the seats allow you to invert your body so that your head is in the best position you found while crawling around listening for the best spot! Unfortunately, proper acoustical analysis takes more then the simple stapling of egg cartons to the walls or buying a kit. Just as proper crossover design requires an understanding of poles and zeros. Simple things can be done. And unfortunately it is not as simple as replacing the caps in an already properly designed crossover. But to treat such a shotgun approach to acoustics as anything more then ingesting all or part of my list of prescriptions to treat what ails you is to miss the point of acoustical analysis and does more to perpetuate the erroneous idea that it is too exotic or an unknown discipline! The fact is, there are real tools available. And generally they are more then the average person wants or needs to deal with. If you choose to do so, you do have to invest quite a bit of time to understand the full significance of them. And no, they are not generally available for under $50. (Maybe I over estimate the average acoustics budget here! Especially as we can so easily justify spending $2500 on a turntable as we listen to others decry spending only $750-$1000!!! And I can find this one too!) As a result, many will not be able to do this by themselves without assistance! But that does not minimize the potential positive impact! But its time to acknowledge that this aspect generally has the second greatest impact on a sound system short of the actual selection of the speakers. I say generally, as there seems to be no end to the other inane ways that people will go to really goof things up! But, this talent aside, the statement is true. And NO!!! As this will quickly come up, room acoustics will NOT correct a speaker's direct signal anomalies!So I will say it yet again. Acoustics are specific to the environment. The maladies may be general to the field of audio, but so are diseases common to humankind. Care to let me operate on you? After all, I can accurately predict that the most common ailment is (fill in the blank). And I am sure that if you let me operate on you for this, it will cure whatever it is that ails you! Sound scary? Maybe even stupid?? Good! And while I can provide you with a general list of things contributing to your general wellness (or a rooms acoustics), it does NOT negate the value of proper analysis and treatment! I know that all are not antagonistic to the idea of acoustical analysis and treatment. And while I may have overlooked such a post, I cannot recall anyone, let alone a group, ever acknowledging or recommending such an idea in this forum. It would be nice to see this topic evolve further. But I have wasted far too much time on a beautiful afternoon. I dont have a problem with this topic. I know the value of room analysis and treatment. Heck, I even understand the value and the limitations of some of that fissiks stuff. I even have ears! And as others say that they are entitled to have fun and express their opinions and have fun, so can I. And I am sure that many have totally missed the humor intended in this post. I am simply bored with the same one size fits all solutions, or the all too common burn the witch or its too kompleekated dismissals and responses to acoustics while we rant for weeks over some obscure interconnect material effecting the response in the gamma region. The world offers more possibilities. Maybe next time we can upset more apple carts by announcing that there is such a thing as INDOOR plumbing! Go figure! But enough trauma for one post! Gee whiz! And to think that I may be late for yet another erudite thread debating speaker wire! Gotta run! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texxas guy Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 Well. hot damn! Guess'n I better throw away all dem egg cartons that granny been saving for me, and dem tater sacks that i was a fixing to use for deffusers too! Sheet, i thunk i'll just re ware papa's old motorola and we have us a hoe down! We'uns down har in texas ain't too bright on dem big words, ya nos? Seriously though, while i can "see your humor", thanks for turning a newbies simple request for a bit of help into your personal soapbox. I think I'll just go back to lurking here. Ya'll have a good'un, ya hear! Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olorin Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Good grief, dragonfyr. I have seen few posts contain so many words and yet say so little. I'm very pleased that you know a lot of stuff, but it's a pity you can't communicate. Einstein's maxim that if you can't explain it to an eight year old, you don't know what you're talking about (paraphrased) comes to mind. Now if you've got something helpful to say, write on. Otherwise spare us your wailing, gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, and wild gesticulating in despair at being unable to elevate the great acoustically unwashed masses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitece Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 ---------------- On 5/23/2005 12:09:36 PM Olorin wrote: Good grief, dragonfyr. I have seen few posts contain so many words and yet say so little. I'm very pleased that you know a lot of stuff, but it's a pity you can't communicate. Einstein's maxim that if you can't explain it to an eight year old, you don't know what you're talking about (paraphrased) comes to mind. Now if you've got something helpful to say, write on. Otherwise spare us your wailing, gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, and wild gesticulating in despair at being unable to elevate the great acoustically unwashed masses. ---------------- I must disagree--Dragonfyr's point comes through loud and clear. Now I can't attribute this quote to anyone in particular but I'm quite certain that someone once said that we only interpret that which we are predisposed to understand and agree with. Dragonfyr's argument centered around the "cookie cutter" approach to room treatments so often advanced in forums similar to this one. Of course he also took broad aim at a variety of other "electronics boutique" tenets-- cables, crossover modifications, ...etc. I think this stuff can be a little overwhelming at times. I imagine that I'm not alone in searching for a simple solution to our HT room's various nulls and modes. I took offense at a poster in the AVS forum because his first response to a poster who had the temerity to ask a question about in-wall speaker placement was to question his knowledge of the topic and send him out in search of a design engineer. I found that response to be somewhat arrogant and dismissive -- I do not equate that with Dragonfyr's response-- just pointing out that those seeking advice on forums such as these are in search of a DIY solution. I understand Dragonfyr's response and appreciate that he took the time to explain his position. Who could argue the fact that a trained professional would offer a better solution than one could find from HT forums or reference books? I just can't get past the notion that I want to design and implement every aspect of my proposed theater. Hopefully when I'm finished my satisfaction with having done it myself will outweigh any acoustic inadequacies. Also, I promise not to spend a $1000 on cables! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 ---------------- On 5/23/2005 12:09:36 PM Olorin wrote: Good grief, dragonfyr. I have seen few posts contain so many words and yet say so little. I'm very pleased that you know a lot of stuff, but it's a pity you can't communicate. Einstein's maxim that if you can't explain it to an eight year old, you don't know what you're talking about (paraphrased) comes to mind. Now if you've got something helpful to say, write on. Otherwise spare us your wailing, gnashing of teeth, rending of garments, and wild gesticulating in despair at being unable to elevate the great acoustically unwashed masses.---------------- Then maybe what we need around here are some 8 year olds open to thinking about technology and paradigms with which they may not be intimate, rather then the old farts who think they know it all. But whatever you do, if it doesn't make sense to you, rather then automatically thinking the other person doesn't know what they are talking about, perhaps one could learn how to ask for clarification instead of being content in one's blissful ignorance. Funny, all I am reading here is alot of pissing and moaning illustrating ignorance instead of asking questions regarding things not well understood. Great contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Thanks! I appreciate that someone tries to understand my point, however poorly I may express it. To build on your idea one more time, at the great risk of further confusing others... It's simple to say that a speaker requires a crossover and to recommend a high slope with minimum overlap, etc. And I dare say that for any transducer combination I can rather simply make such a pretty accurate suggestion. And while profound, it is worthless. It is worthless because the particular crossover design is dependent upon many specific factors. And you don't just simple run to the crossover store and buy a crossover, one or two sizes fit all. And about now, with infinite insight, you are saying ok, what's my point. Well, the particular acoustical anomalies are more complex than designing a crossover(which is in itself a complex process!). There are more potential variables to address. And a bass trap or two or four or... (just HOW many do you need? Quick, don't you know??) And exactly what reflections are you dealing with? Are they summing or are the destructive? Is it a second order or third order reflection? Is it a result of speaker interaction of a simple reflection? What is the envelope time curve's rate of decay? Is the persistence of a particular frequency component a result of room factors or a function of the speaker itself or of multiple speakers? I'll describe my room to you. I'll even give you the dimensions; do you have a well conceived plan that will ACTUALLY address the real factors and not only your simplistic assumptions? What!? Isn't my data sufficient? And whatever your solutions are, what reflective coefficients did you use for each of the various surfaces? Heck, as you aren't sure and CAN'T measure them, how would you even guess? Thanks, but no thanks. I can give anyone some general guidelines for a room; just as I can give you general guidelines for a crossover. But without more room specific measurements (and no, an SPL meter and an RTA WON'T do it!) the suggestions are worth what you pay for them! Whining? Those whining are those who think that they can read a couple of paragraphs, build a generic Helmholtz resonator or two, and install curtains or some Sonex and they are set to go. Yep, and that generic crossover from Radio Shack will kick the ALK crossovers around the room too! Right! Acoustical analysis of a room need be no more expensive then one of your cheaper components. Or if you could obtain a library of impulse responses of transducers and or speakers, you could convolve them with a room modeling package that you might be able to model yourself. And while Klipsch should make them available in a CLF format for importation into CATT-A, EASE, or any of several other powerful room modeling programs; in lieu of their willingness to do so (which will also limit their use in professionally designed room, halls and studios )we will try to build such a library in the fall. But while you are at it, I have speakers in my room. I read somewhere that they should have them wire things connecting them to my amplifier in order to make them louder. And someone else said that they need to actually reach the speakers! Damn! So how long should each be? I should measure? Really?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Funny, it works with acoustical analysis too. Go figure. Unfortunately, the only quick and short acoustical solution without sufficient data, is a generic shotgun approach response that will likely cause as many problems as it might help. For the rest of you who don't know quite as much as some others about the capabilities of acoustical analysis, nor have all the answers unlike those who have never even seen a TEF (or any other time based) acoustical analyzer, I am glad to try and answer any questions, or to at least direct you in a productive direction to find an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 ---------------- On 5/23/2005 11:15:09 AM texxas guy wrote: Well. hot damn! Guess'n I better throw away all dem egg cartons that granny been saving for me, and dem tater sacks that i was a fixing to use for deffusers too! Sheet, i thunk i'll just re ware papa's old motorola and we have us a hoe down! We'uns down har in texas ain't too bright on dem big words, ya nos? Seriously though, while i can "see your humor", thanks for turning a newbies simple request for a bit of help into your personal soapbox. I think I'll just go back to lurking here. Ya'll have a good'un, ya hear! Larry---------------- Sorry the proper answer isn't to run to Wal-Mart and buy the latest acoustical treatment kit for $39.95. And lest others think all those in Texas can't read or think, a surprising number of TEF's are in Texas. And while I suspect that telephones may be a confusing technology for you as well, here is the number to a few folks who actually can use a phone and more: The Russ Berger Design Group. 972-661-5222 http://www.rbdg.com/home/index.php You know, in the little town of Addison in the DFW area. Let them know that they can toss their analyzers away... Here, you read how they what they think of acoustical analysis as well! http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_russ_berger_full/ But what out, them folks is tricky too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 i just go into the dsp menu,, an move the slider on the liveleness, of the room Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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