BEC Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Dean, Sorry, I am back now. Had to take a couple of minutes time-out and sell another guy a new set of AAs. Bob Pilot's last words: "I don't care what the instruments say. I believe I am right-side-up and North is that-a-way. Now let's climb!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 LOL -- you only need the instruments when you're flying in the dark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 Dean, I like the type A also. Thought that would be the one I sold the most of. Turns out I sell 10 AAs to every A. I guess that making the AA convertible helps those sell and a large number of folks do select using the Type A setting of my convertible networks. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Guys, I think maybe we are all barking up the wrong tree here anyhow. The A, AA and by Universal replacement are all in the same catagory. That is, gentle slope networks that simply let the drivers work together and that let the drivers intereact with each other like crazy. The next step is the extreme-slope netwroks. Even with that, the really big improvement I noticed was when I pulled the K500 horns out of my Belles and replace them with the Altec VOT horns. That was the change that knocked my socks off! This is the only change where I will actually say that it sounded better without any reservations. I will normally restrict my comments to instrument measurement differences where nobody can dispute it. Instruments don't lie if they are used properly. You are just not always sure that you are measuring the right thing! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 The conventional networks may be in the same "category", but only in the most general way. Someone might argue that there isn't "that much" difference between the A and AA, the Type A and John's DHA, or the AA and the ALK -- but the perceived acoustic differences at the listening position are fairly dramatic I think. There is a wide disparity between what is measured and what is heard, and anyone who denies this just isn't being realistic, or just plain isn't paying much attention to what's coming out of the speaker. At any rate, I think the shallow slopes, though obviously fighting an uphill battle, present a signature that the ears are very accustomed to. Refinement in these models simply means a higher level of enjoyment. I think a person should shoot for the highest level of performance the budget allows for, and there is certainly a relationship between cost and performance. Extreme Slopes is definitely the way to go, and that's the way I'm going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 ---------------- On 6/1/2005 3:27:24 PM jeffgeorge wrote: Al, Why don't you leave Bob alone. He produces a fine product at a price point that is attainable for most people. I know that you produce a fine product yourself, but to bash Bob and the rest of us that have bought networks from him, seems a bit distasteful. ---------------- Sorry I didn't see this comment earlier. I AM NOT BASHING BOB, NOT AT ALL! I am bashing the AA network! I considered building AA networks early on myself but I couldn't bring myself to do it becasue, having had years of experice building filters and networks just like crossover networks, but at microwave frequencies and I realized that it was an economy design. I couldn't bring myself to build them when I could easily design something much better! It bugs me to see people putting new AA networks in their speakers when something much better is available. The only reason to do it is to save money! If I was ONLY interested in selling netwroks to make a buck I would not have put the design of my Universal replacement network (and the ES networks) design up on my web site for anybody to build himself. I want to see everybody move forward, not backward! There is no doubt a new AA will sound better than one built 30 years ago. What bugs me is people who are raving about how good a new AA sounds (no matteer who built it) when he has never heard how good a quality design can sound. I consider this a disservice to other people who want to upgrade their speakers. NOT a disservice to me! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Al, I believe I hear where you are coming from... that you are not dinging Bob in any way. The discussion is about the crossovers... that the AA was built to a price point and that it can be easily improved upon. In my observation, the issues of this debate are carried over in a significant number of the threads on the forum regarding updating and improving Heritage speakers all up and down the line. There are lots of folks who have "improved" their Khorns with custom HF sections. I think wringing out the best quality and last bit of improvable sound from the design is a worthy task. What you mention as frustrating is folks that could have better sound, but don't, choosing a reburbished AA or other design when something better is available. That makes sense. What I wanted to mention was something of a discovery for me and an actual surprise. When I heard my khorns with Lee's ES crossovers and Beyma tweeter dropped in I was absolutely blown away by the sound. I thought wow, this is a fabulous improvement in sound. Now, unfortunately I couldn't persuade Lee to leave his ES's at my house, and it wasn't the right time to acquire a pair. I did enjoy for several weeks listening to the Beyma tweeter as a replacement for the K77, both with your Type A replacement networks and Bob's AA's. Anyway, after a few weeks I went back and hooked up the K77. I thought, now that sounds like Klipsch again. This was the surprising discovery. I identified a certain romantic affection for the "Klipsch sound." It is not that it can't be improved, it certainly can. But what surprised me was that I found myself feeling all corny about PWK and hearing the sound that he voiced as his own to turn out from the factory. I still enjoy rotating crossovers through my system when I feel the urge. And I'd sure enjoy a season listening to the ES crossovers. Sometime I will, I'm sure. Surprising enough to me, I could have better, but PWK's designs have a certain nostalgic value that is enjoyable to me. It's good enough and works for me. Also attractive is the relative expense which is easier on the wallet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Excellent thread, guys, nice reading. Thanks for all your posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwhaples Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I agree, Great read. I still enjoy the Dean moded ALK's and can't imagine it getting better with my Corn's. Dean,Al,Bob Thanks for being there to help others enjoy, and having a choice to do so. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Guys, -------------- "I believe I hear where you are coming from... that you are not dinging Bob in any way. The discussion is about the crossovers... that the AA was built to a price point and that it can be easily improved upon." ---------------- Yes, you got it! There is a conflict here because I do not want to see Bob loose business, yet I don't want to see Klipsch speaker owners thinking that the AA is anything wonderful when it isn't and I don't want to see ME loose business either! I suppose what I would like to see is everybody buy an AA from Bob, use it for a few months to see how life used to be, then put the AA on eBay and upgrade to one of my networks! That way everybody makes out. I suppose one of Deans networks could fit somewhere in there someplace too! He is developing a nice selection of intermediate network designs that will be upgrades and will not cost a lot more than Bob's AA clones. ---------------- "Anyway, after a few weeks I went back and hooked up the K77. I thought, now that sounds like Klipsch again. This was the surprising discovery. I identified a certain romantic affection for the "Klipsch sound." It is not that it can't be improved, it certainly can. But what surprised me was that I found myself feeling all corny about PWK and hearing the sound that he voiced as his own to turn out from the factory. I still enjoy rotating crossovers through my system when I feel the urge. And I'd sure enjoy a season listening to the ES crossovers. Sometime I will, I'm sure." ----------------- I have often been asked, If your network is so blasted good and the K400 / 500 horn is so bad, why doesn't Klipsch incorporate a Tractrix horn and your network into the new Klipschorns they are building. They have Tractrix horns in every other speaker they make! WELL... This is why! They are preserving the "Heritage" of the PWK sound. The next logical step for them would be to build the Jubilee to replace it. That is just not going to happen. Think about it! It's the owners job to upgrade, not to upgrade, or to do authentic restoration. Not theirs! The only changes they have made to the Heritage line has been done becasue they have not been able to get the original drivers since ElectroVice quit making OEM parts. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 And to all , The worst thing is that most think that those changes are an upgrade again .....ha ha ah haaa !!!! Trey Cannon just went back to Atlas again and just bought the PD-5VH which they had for years........ And built again the cheapest crossover like the Ak-4 and AL-4 And now you have the bass coming from the midrange and there is no crossover between the midrange and Tweeter ! And over ten or maybe fifteen years we are going to rebuild those AK-4 thing over and thinking how the good old times were...... I don't think a speaker sounds when he does you are on the wrong way. I rather think a speaker performs And whit the equipment of Al Klappenberger he performs at his BEST ! Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champagne taste beer budget Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Come again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 O.K., you're from the Netherlands, so we'll forgive your bad English. However, let me be the first to tell you that you're a loon. I don't know what network you're describing, but it isn't the AK-4 -- which sounds pretty darn good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 I think this is sort of continued from here: http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=65958&sessionID={B64BEF2C-257B-4398-938A-FBC8A57569DA} Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Dean, I went back and read that thread which Bob just posted. You mentioned in that thread that the AK-4 crossover beats the AA in the improvement of Khorn bass (as well as higher levels and not falling apart). What I'm wondering about is what is it in the AK-4 that does so well with the Khorn bass. With the bass bin and woofers being equal... what does the crossover do? That would be a big deal to improve in this way. Also, could you describe the difference? Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Guys, For what it's worth, I have analyzed what I THINK is the AK-4 network in the computer. From what I see there is two possibilities: (1) - I have the circuit or part values wrong, or (2) it's the worst looking network Klipsch has ever put in a Khorn! I won't know until I get my hads on an AK-4 to take actual measurements. The improvement Dean hears in the bass is probably due to an equalizer that compensates for the peak that is a natural part of the Khonr bass horn. I suspect it may sound a bit less boomy. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Dee, If you look at a raw response plot of the Klipschorn bass bin (search out JAES paper on the Jubilee), it's easy to surmise what they did. I believe they gave up some sensitivity, and pushed down the large peaks through the middle to meet up closer with falling response below 100Hz. The low end sounds much more evened out compared to the old networks and ALKs I've been running over here, which by comparison sound a bit lumpy, and not as tight. By bringing down the large peaks, the low end is more audible. To get a good balanced sound, I'm sure they had to pad the heck out of the squawker and tweeter. The Type A, AA, and ALK seem to have more output from both the squawker and tweeter than the AK-4. Al, isn't the most important thing the acoustic response? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Dean, Thanks for your take on that. Makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bennyboy Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Dean, Okay ,forgive me for mine bad englisch. But sure i have a great respect for you guys ! And i know you have the best intention to make pretty stuff. I bought mine La-Scala speakers brandnew whith the AL-4 network. The first set wasn't okay ,the network didn't work fine and one driver (K55x) didn't have the same output as the other. So the importer gave me a new set.But it was actual not better. So i did go my own way . Many crossovers have i tried. I spent a lot of money to get the speakers right. Some measurements took place . Finally i read the forum . So in the end i went back from an AL-4 network to an constant impedance "A-series" network from AL Klappenberger. In mine opinion is 1800 dollar a lot of money for an AK-4 upgrade. I don't think there is much different in the AL-4 and AK-4. And i think you guys do a better job here. Maybe it is better for me not to get involved here and stay away. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 5, 2005 Share Posted June 5, 2005 Dean, I think your wrong when you call Bennyboy "a loon". I think he knows what he's talking about. If he is who think he is, he has SN172 of my universal replacement networks. I think I believe what he is saying! Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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