jim-analog Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Greetings, Just wanted to update everyone on the recent Trachorn upgrade to my K-horn system. The horns arrived a few weeks ago and I had initially installed a single one to be able to compare channels. This proved difficult as the sound was so very different between the sides and the frequency balance wasn't right. I then proceeded with the other one. A note on installation; it was very easy, taking about 10-15 minutes per side working by myself. One minor issue was the rear driver board was a bit too tall to clear the braces in the top compartment. Loosening the 4 screws that held the top on and lifting it up about 1/2" solved this. Otherwise a very simple exchange. At the time of this installation, I had been using a set of K55V drivers, that I had swapped in about 6 months ago removing the K55Ms. My first impressions were that my K-horns were now completely different sounding speakers, better yes, but mostly very different. It appeared there was an increase in high frequency content, which I couldn't understand. Al K. replied with a message describing this as an expected phenomena. After a few days of listening, I was certain there was a frequency in-balance, so I made adjustments to the midrange transformer taps (ALK x-overs). I ended up increasing the attenuation by about 2dB from where it had been. Things still weren't to my liking, so I removed the K55V drivers and re-installed the K55Ms. Another few days of listening and a re-adjustment to lower again the midrange level by another 2 or so dB. Now the system is starting to sound really good. Much improved detail and smoother with less "horn sound". I'm not sure I have the frequency balances set just right yet, my tweeters (EV-T350) are definitely a bit too hot. I'm taking this update gradually and trying to listen before making adjustments. All in all a good upgrade, great workmanship on the T-Horns, easy install and better sound. Looking at this package, I feel it is really a bargain price for the quality and anyone considering these horns should not be deterred by the price. I'll write more later as I get a chance to re-familiarize myself with the sound and make a few more adjustments. Regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 27, 2005 Share Posted June 27, 2005 Guys, The apparent increase in highs has been noticed by several people who have heard the Trachorn. The response of the Trachorn is flat as you can see by the curves. The K400 dips a bit at it's high end and that my be the difference. I didn't expect it to be that noticable just looking at the curves though. There is something else going than just frequency response. I suspect it has more to do with human perception. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 I'm sure this is going to be network dependant. Looking at the plot on your website, ALK users might find that taps 4 and X work best. Of course, this is problematic for anyone with fixed settings. Based on what little I know about horns, it doesn't seem likely that one can just drop a different horn in without at least some modification to the network (attenuation). The ALK is perfect for this, as well as the simpler version which allows for attenuation without causing a shift in the crossover points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Guys, Here's a comparison plot of the K500 horn (Belle Klipsch squawker) versus the Trachorn using a K55V driver. The scale is absolute SPL sensitivity. It shows that the levels are the same except where the K500 starts to drop at the extreme high end. This is proably what Joe is hearing. I am not sure the level should be cut down right away to compensate for this. It may be simply be more correct and you might want to try to get used to it before you compensate. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Dean, In my case you are right on the button. Just lastnight I changed from 5-2 to 4-X and it is much better. Now all I need to do is attenuate the 2404H's to match and I will be set. I am running them without attenuation with the ALK's and obviously they are just too damned hot, even more now that I went from 5-2 to 4-X. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Guys, The tweeters running hot seems to be the norm. This is why I am incorporating the tweeter transformer in my ES5800 network. I suggest getting a cheap variable L-pad to adjust until it sound right, then making a fixed pad equal to the final setting. The problem is measuring the final attenuation. That takes instruments unless the pad has a dB scale on the knob. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Thanks for the info and email Mr.K. Have you or has anyone here had any experience with the Fostex R100T transformer type attenuator? It is 8 ohm and is variable from 0 to 21 db attenuation in 1 db steps. Kind of pricey though at $150-$175.00 per side. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Al, The trachorn looks very impressive from 400-1KHz compared to the K-400. What do you attribute the dip centered at 4KHz to? Room response, measurement aberition, or the K-55 itself? Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Rick, The 4 Khz dip is the particular k55 driver. It shows up on every plot I do with it. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 28, 2005 Share Posted June 28, 2005 Jorden, you're going to end up with tweeter section that costs more than your K-horns! I've been eyeing that Fostex too:) C'mon Al, give us the new former and PCB for the ALK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Dean, I'll be ordering more transformer tweeter attenuator PC boards in a few weeks. The problam is that PC boards are expensive. It becomes a cash-flow killer! I will be ordering them from a different supplier using an entirely new system of specifying them (Gerber files). The new boards will be desirned to mount on a wooden board with a barrier block to make the connections. The boards I have now are designed to go directly on a network. I need to use these up first. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim-analog Posted June 29, 2005 Author Share Posted June 29, 2005 Greetings again, Just a few things to note. Yes, I am using Al K.s' original crossover. The current setting is 4,1= -7.4dB. This seems pretty close, but I'll do some sweeps to verify. The speakers are more program dependant than ever before as their resolution has been increased and really show a bad recording for what it is. I listened quite a bit since the last attenuation change and on a good recording it seems to be quite well balanced between the low to midrange. The tweeters are definatly too hot; they are EV T-350s. I've only been able to find junk L-pads, and though that is an idea to help figure out a resistive attenuator value, I'd prefer to use a mulit tapped transformer to accomodate recording dependant changes. I'll try to check out the Fostex units that were mentioned. Right now, the system is running with a single amp (Mc225) full range (not including the sub that is crossed at 70Hz with it's own amp). I usualy have it set up bi-amped, but am in the process of building a new mid/high amp that won't be complete for a while. The other amps I have available don't work too well with these speakers, or require some work. I've found that a lower power, higher quality amp is what works best and intend on using the 225 as the low frequency amp. Plenty of volume and headroom. Thanks again for all the comments! BTW, where are the Fostex attenuators available? Regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Jim, you can find them over at www.madisound.com on the Fostex page (.pdf). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted June 29, 2005 Share Posted June 29, 2005 Guys, It's looking like I am going to have to get that attenuator PC board project off the back burner and up front sooner than I figured! I am making a list of people interested, so if you want a set, email me. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim-analog Posted June 30, 2005 Author Share Posted June 30, 2005 Greetings, Many thanks for the tip on the Fostex transformer attenuator and the suggestion of Madisound as a vendor. I ordered a set last night. They look to be very nice, high quality units and the fine degree of resolution will be most helpful. With the new Trachorns, Als' crossovers, the EV tweeters and the attenuators, it seems that a possible weak link in the chain could be the mid driver itself. What are some of the currently manufactured mid range drivers that are a significant improvement over the K55M and K55V (I have both available)? I've seen mention of some older Altec and JBL units, but am concerned they may be difficult to source or find replacement diaphragms for, so current production is a plus. I'm not completely against older drivers as long as replacement diaphragms are available and the 400Hz requirement can be met. Many other drivers I've seen also don't seem to want to go low enough in frequency to mate well with the K-Horns. The TAD 2001 seems very nice, but requires a 600Hz crossover point. What are you guys using or have heard? Anything that's been tried with the Trachorn and Als' original crossover? I really appreciate all the input the group has given and the free exchange of knowledge here! Klipsch rules! Regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I'm not trying to hijack here but I have to join in on the above post regarding the search for a new mid driver. I recently was in search of a driver that could cross at 400hZ or below but couldn't find many results. I am sure everyone here has looked at the Usspeaker website many times for driver options. however, give this a look. http://www.usspeaker.com/bms%204592nd-1.htm I know nothing of BMS drivers. It is interesting that the graph below the listing doesn't show below 500hz. My feeling is that it may roll off there. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 JC, As you know, the BMS is a 2" driver, so the real trick is finding another 1" driver that is rated to perform down into the K55/PD-5VH's lower end region. I am not sure such an animal exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 I did see that. I was assuming there could be an adapter to fit other horns. I assume too much I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jorjen Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Sorry about that JC. I was assuming you were talking about drivers that could be used with the Trachorn. I know adapting a 1.4" - 1.5" driver to a one inch horn is somewhat acceptable, but I do not know if it is acceptable to mate a 2" driver to a 1" horn, I sure would not think so. But, it would definitely provide more driver options for 400 - 500hz use. Maybe someone more knowledgeable on the subject can shed some light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim-analog Posted July 4, 2005 Author Share Posted July 4, 2005 Greetings, I received the Fostex transformer attenuators via next day shippment. Installed them into the H/F line (EV-T350) and they work great. As far as I can tell, either by using the zero attenuation setting or bypass they don't seem to have any adverse effects. The finish work is very good, no clicks or noise when changing settings. It's very nice to have 1dB flexability for adjustments. Al K., would these work either as replacement for the midrange auto-transformer in your original x-over networks or be better placed down line? I'd like to have the ease of setting change and 1dB increment for the midrange driver. I'm sure that most users would "set and forget" the midrange, but I've found that different source material can benefit from a balance change; sort of like adjusting the levels as a type of "equalization". Anyway, even though the Fostex units were on the expensive side (about $170/ea), I do recommend them to anyone seeking the fine degree of control, neutral sonics and ease of adjustment they offer. Regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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