Cleve Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Our AudioKarma group went on a McIntosh factory tour yesterday. Ron Cornelius of McIntosh showed us a beefy crossover that had been freshly built IN AMERICA, IN-HOUSE, by Americans in Binghamton NY. Is this for a massive floorstanding speaker? Nope, this is for one of their SMALLEST bookshelf speakers the XLS320 which weighs a paltry 23 pounds, and stands just over 15" tall. Now I was curious, so I popped a woofer out of one of my CF-4s this morning and took a photo of the crossover network... Mind you, the McIntosh is rated for 250 watts continuous, the CF-4 for 300 watts. Just ONE of the McIntosh coils is larger than ALL the components on the CF-4 crossover combined. I have the feeling that running the two speakers at their rated power for 24 hours straight would slag the crossover on the CF-4, while the Mac would be runnin' just fine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 The man is holding a McIntosh crossover? I'm interested to hear more. What kind of stuff is McIntosh building? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 Hope it's clearer, now Daddy. It's a pain uploading more than one file on this forum, and then pasting the hotlinks manually for each. Actually, the perspective on the CF-4 is distorted in the cross-over's favor. The tape measure is sitting on a cross brace a few inches closer to the camera than the crossover. The whole unit is maybe 2" across by 3" wide - it's smaller than just one side of the Mac crossover. The XLS-320 is a bookshelf two way system with an 8" woofer. That's why I'm saying - it's shocking how overbuilt the crossover is, with massive coils and cap. I'm thinking that the Mac could run day in, day out, at rated power, like a Pro speaker, whereas the CF-4 crossover would deteriorate under such usage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Is that big thing behind him a capacitor?? I mean, it is yellow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 ---------------- On 8/9/2005 8:18:27 AM fini wrote: Is that big thing behind him a capacitor?? I mean, it is yellow... ---------------- I think that must be for a floorstanding model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boom3 Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Well, this is Mcintosh, after all, and they have always overbuilt. If I was paying for the Mac name, I would expect, no, make that demand, that this build quality be present. This comparison is not quite on the mark...Mac products, even speakers, are fairly rarified...the CF4 is more of mass market product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leok Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Note that many members of this forum are using rebuilt crossovers .. the rebuild usually being a simple replacement of existing parts with higher quality devices. There is also a fairly active trade in alternative crossovers for the larger Klipsch models. Klipsch could use the higher quality parts to begin with, but those parts are expensive and would definately impact selling prices. And, for many, the stock Klipsch crossovers are fine. Which is the best marketing approach? For me, probably the Klipsch approach. I get a great design, great drivers, good box, and a crossover I know I'll upgrade .. all at a bargain price. Leo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Those large steel laminate coils are the same ones I use. The Erse Super 'Q' inductors run about $12 a piece retail. The yellow cap is a Mylar for the low pass section, and those run about $3. There is probably an epoxy coated polypropylene tucked away on the other side of that yellow cap for the high pass. These parts are standard in the industry. Now, the quality of the parts Klipsch is currently using on their Reference stuff is actually better than what I'm seeing on that board. You won't find a Mylar capacitor on any of the current production Reference speakers. Klipsch also uses steel laminate coils, but they aren't large gauge types -- because they don't need to be. The wire size determines the DCR of the coil, and this is tied to the alignment of the woofers, cabinet size, and port. With inductors, size comparisons don't mean much. In the Heritage lineup, Klipsch does use Mylars exclusively. Those networks possess a very high part count, and the use of polypropylenes would really drive the price up. I also suspect the use of Mylars is related to a voicing preferenced by those at Klipsch. Something to keep in mind when looking at the older Klipsch networks is their use of the autotransformer -- which is not a cheap part by any stretch of the imagination. The C4 doesn't have one though because it doesn't have a squawker/midrange. The only other Klipsch network I have seen that utilized an electrolytic in the high pass section is the network for the Chorus/Chorus II. I agree the C4 network is kind of pathetic from a parts quality perspective, and the only thing I can think of is that Klipsch must have went through some hard times at one point. BTW, you need to upgrade those networks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 Where can I get replacement networks? My existing crossovers look like junk - I'd love some new, beefy crossovers ala McIntosh - I'd hate to think of what it would cost to commission McIntosh to make me some custom X-overs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 I forgot to mention in my last post - at Audio Classics yesterday they've a cutaway K-Horn on display, and it's got a big burly crossover network - and that's a speaker designed in the era of 5 watt amps, no less. Don't forget - the Epics were NOT cheap when new - I think retail in 1994 was something like $2800 for a pair - hardly "entry level" speakers. I am really dismayed by the shoddyness of the Klipsch componentry - a "Theatre Research" crossover can't be much wimpier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 ---------------- On 8/9/2005 12:00:51 PM Cleve wrote: Where can I get replacement networks? My existing crossovers look like junk - I'd love some new, beefy crossovers ala McIntosh - I'd hate to think of what it would cost to commission McIntosh to make me some custom X-overs. ---------------- Huh... from Dean! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Cleve, if DeanG reworked the networks in your front 3 CF-4's your lower jaw would hit the ground with the improvement that you are going to hear. I kid you not you would have to invest $3K-$5K in sources and gear to yield similar performance results. All of my speakers have been transformed ala DeanG, you should hear the improvement of my '62 Vertical Cornwalls with the Kimbered Type B's in them -Whoa! With the soldered terminal K-55V's and the Jensen P-15LL woofers in them I'd put them up against just about anything. Now I just need to get the 13uf's caps replaced in my '88's! Definately worth the investment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Gee, those Mac crossovers look like about one half the size of my replacement crossovers. Who needs wimpy stock Klipsch crossovers? Not me. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dflip Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I saw the same crossovers at the McIntosh tours and had them in my hands taking a quick look at them. The caps weren't at the level of the modifications that many of us have made, but looked good for a stock unit. Putting Auricaps, Kimbercaps, Hovlands or Jensen's in place for the tweeter circuit would increase the cost. There were also two rectangular inductors (I believe, at least they look similar to what is inside my amp) in the circuit as well. Dean, Al and Bob, all make more impressive looking versions, but for a manufacturer, they do look good. I will post some pics of the tour tomorrow after I wake up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleve Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Dean, you have PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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