Ksw-15 vs Rsw-15

[Guest BobG]

By our measurements, the RSW-15 is many, many dB louder at 20 Hz than the HGS-18

[TheEAR]

Forresthump the Revel B15 is no way beat in terms of bass definition,I don know where you took this from.

The BIG velo is one heck of a sub,this is why I will get one before the year end.In terms of low bass,yes the HGS18 has any sub defeated.It can go to below 16 Hz with ease.

Velodyne should make some kind of HGS18SE version,SE would have a sturdier cabinet and a driver with a greater peak to peak then it has now,and 250-500 watts more(20 AMP dedicated line needed?).Then run not walk to the closest Velo dealer and get one.Still the HGS15 and 18 kick serious SPL and go down LOW.

There is a sub that beats all others with ease but its price is so high most here would puke.The Krell Master Reference Sub with its twin 15"(3 inch peak to peak)drivers(over 80lbs of magnet on each driver!!!!)with the Krell 2400W RMS ...Krell amp(who better! LOL) all housed in a solid alloy cabinet(the sub weighs over 400lbs!).Now this is a world leader...but at $35000 its out of my budget and out of 99% of the audiophiles budget.

I hope to hear the RSW15 soon,its its A ok then its a go.

I cant wait,RSW15 and HGS18 added to my power pack! LOL

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[forresthump]

Bobg guess we will see on the bass quantity of the Rsw-15 from independent reviews & measurements.

My point on quality is that it is mostly subjective. Ears you can say the revel has more definition but that is opinion. If there's any scientific measurement at all for bass quality its thd distortion levels. that's why the hgs-18 has a servo & less peak to peak. for higher definition, less distortion & better bass quality than a revel b15. but we could disagree forever which 1 has better definition as there's no empirical proof. i've heard it by listening to both & that's my opinion.

just found it interesting that velodyne publishes distortion levels & revel doesn't. klipsch most likely won't either. but as long as folks overemphasize bass quantity way over quality that's what we get. just don't confuse the 2 - the hgs-18 strong suit is quality given the quantity. the b15 & surely the rsw is quantity given acceptable quality

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go forth & hump the world

[boa12]

as hump pertains, that was kinda my point. why pay 2-3k for an hgs-18 if it can't keep up & isn't musical or lacks definition. the servo/accelometer, sealed box, stiff cone, etc. are there for that very reason. what good are those technologies for LFE in HT ie who cares how much distortion or bass quality a sub has for explosions & thunder & such?

they're put in for better quality bass. & where is quality most evident? the detail of music.

can't understand why some consider it an HT-only sub. tastes i guess.

This message has been edited by boa12 on 09-24-2001 at 09:59 PM

[Curt Jett]

All this heated debate makes me wonder....

WHERE IS HornEd????

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Mains: RF-3s

Center: RC-3

Rears: RS-3s

Sub: Dual SVS 20-39cs

Receiver: Onkyo 696

DVD: Toshiba 6200

TV: Mits Diamond WS65907

[TheEAR]

I agree about the distortion and quality,with poor quality loudness means nothing.Anybody who would claim the Revel B15 is sub par did not listen to this subwoofer setup like it should be.

And I did,I own one damit.So if quality was poor I would not even look at the sub,no matter the specs or output.Quality is of the highest importance in audio.

Just some news on the side Paradigm will have a new Reference sub in a not too distant future!

Most know the PW2200 and some know the Servo-15,the new sub should be like the Servo-15 with much more output!And you know the Servo-15 is like a HGS Velodyne.A comparator monitors the cone and adjusts the movement.Very low distortion and very clean bass.

I can wait,all the new large subs! Its my time again!

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[forresthump]

ears, i didnt say the B15 was "sub par" (good one ) on quality. i just said i've heard both it and the big

vel & i think the hgs is cleaner better quality bass especially really low like 15-30HZ. the hgs is so clean & accurate down there that any sub that comes close is good quality. and the b15 is a great sub but i disagree with your statement above that it has better

quality. quantity yes!

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go forth & hump the world

[Btrigg]

Um, I can't speak from experience, but the revel is much tighter, I don't think any 18 sub is that tight anyway. This is based on what I've read though.

[TheEAR]

"SUB-PAR" LOL

Forresthump the Revel B15 is an amazing sub if setup well.I have compared the two HGS18 VS B15 and both reach down low,its true the big Velo can dig down to below 16Hz and this in itself is a feat!

Now as far as tight and defined is concerned its a close fight.

And reemember the Revel B15 is Revel's mid fi sub! LOL

They have a High-End series and the SUB15/LE1 combo sub.This subwoofer has a punch and definition no other sub I heard can match!And when you get two SUB15 and one LE1 power amp you get bass quality no Velo can even touch.

The High-End Revel amp uses no limitators like almost all other sub use.The bass impact is HUGE,it must be heard to realise how much punch the reference Revel subs have.Even bring on the SVS Ultra any day.

And yes I hear you all "LOOK AT THE DAMN PRICE" sure its expensive but when you want the very finest it will always cost ya mucho dinero.

Oh and the Velodyne is not fast at all,like some claim.

Try the reference Revel and you will know fast bass with a punch.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[forresthump]

using 2 subs against 1 is no fair how about 2 hgs-18. show me the specs that show the vel-18 is slow. otherwise it's just tastes & opinions most likely biased by a preconceived notion of an 18" being slow or what they read. remember an 18" is a 15", a 12" etc. all in one. some people must think a sub should be as fast as a tweeter.

subs like the hgs-18 also get accused of being slow because of their lower extension. just have to get use to those slower lower lows. guess you'll hear when you get it ears. it will stand out from ALL your others

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go forth & hump the world

[TheEAR]

Stand out,yes with bass extention.It goes deeper then any of my current subs.

The meister of definition is my Aerial Acoustics SW12,this beauty can keep up(speed)with even my Dynaudio Contour 3.3's!And the Dynaudio's use two 8" drivers with 4" voice coils.Not many subs are worthy to play with the Contour 3.3's.The Aerial Acoustics is!

Now the larger the driver(cone surface) the larger the voice coil would have to be.The larger cone surface creates more drag,you have to think proportional here.

If say a 8" driver uses a powerful magnets and a 4" voice coil driven my say a Spectral(fastest amps in the world,yes amps can be fast too! LOL)it outperforms a 18" driver with only a 3" voice coil any day(even with the help of the servo control,the electro magnet..voice coil can do only so much stop and go)...

Any way I am going for the big Velodyne HGS18,my mind is made up.I simply state some opinions and..facts. LOL

So if you want to argue I can continue to the infinity,I did read so many mags and some books on this.And confirmed in A/B tests.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[forresthump]

size of coils and cones are what goes in. speed, definition, accuracy are the product but can only be measured by theears LOL. theears are connected to the brain or processor and then you get subjective opinion. theears belong to many people. some may think a sub is fast & others may think it's slow. the only real unbiased instrument measurable spec under the sub sound quality category is distortion & the hgs-18 beats them all 1 sub vs 1 sub. theears, not saying you don't think the B15 or others have better quality than the hgs, I'm just saying that you don't have any unbiased empirical proof & I have my own opinion

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go forth & hump the world

[TVodhanel]

>>>The High-End Revel amp uses no limitators like almost all other sub use.The bass impact is HUGE,it must be heard to realise how much punch the reference Revel subs have.Even bring on the SVS Ultra any day.<<<

The CS_Ultra was designed to make *high end* bass affordable.

We offer DUAL CS_Ultras and a kilowatt amp for $2299.

Bring on the *revel* product that can match---HELL...even APPROACH our cost/performance ratios.

TV

[Ray Garrison]

I think 'ears point was that if you spend a great big sh*tload of money, you can get a sub that will outperform the best that SVS or Velodyne or most other guys have to offer.

Will it touch the SVS price / performance ratio? Guess that depends on how you look at it - what is an acceptable slope on that curve? Is the Krell Master Reference Subwoofer, at around $30,000, worth the extra cost over a circa $3,000 SVS system if it sounds, to pick an arbitrary meaningless number, 20% better? Is that SVS system at $3,000 a better buy than a $300 subwoofer if the SVS sounds 100% better?

Lets look at those ratios...

Using 10 as the Krell rating, we get:

Krell = 10

SVS = 8

other = 4

Price / Performance

Krell = $3,000 per unit of goodness

SVS = $375 per unit of goodness

other = $75 per unit of goodness

Hummm.... seems like the $300 job that is only half as good as the SVS (assuming it's "half as good", whatever that means) is the best buy here.

What's my point? Only that when talking about how good a product can be built to a particular price point, and what the best compromise is between price and performance, everyone will have their own opinion about where on the curve they're going to spend their money.

Me, I have an REL Storm sub that I've had for about 6 years that I paid around $1,500 for. If I started over today, I'd buy one of the SVS systems. Actually, taking a quick look in my wallet, I'd forgo the sub, buy the sheet music, look at the bass line and allow the pseudo-cochlear cortex-based bass line fundamental frequency extender to kick in.

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

[dougdrake2]

Ray - I know you're just hoping someone will ask. Ok, I'll bite:

What the heck is that last thing you said?

DD2

[bacevedo]

Doug - I think he is saying that he will follow along with the music, and let his brain fill in the bass line that he is missing!

Bryan

[TVodhanel]

For 30k, I can assure you...SVS could custom design a subwoofer that would make the krell pee all over itself.

In fact, let's say half that...and the other 15k will buy a round for everyone here

Or, you could save 85% the easy way...get a dual CS_U/S1000 package...and have a system that would give the krell a serious run.(perhaps surpassing it).

TV

[Ray Garrison]

Given that Krell, Theil, Wilson and others seem to be able to sell enough hideously expensive subs to make it worth their while, has SVS ever given thought to bringing out a product at, say, the $10K or 15$K price point?

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Music is art

Audio is engineering

[TheEAR]

LOL

WOW I see so much steam here!What is wrong with all of ya?

I never said the SVS Ultra was a bad product,I always said I was very impressed with the twin Ultras I heard.

Mr TV I have no doubt for ten grand you could sell six Ultra bass units and three power amps and outperform a single Krell MRS.Yes the SVS would cost below 10 grand and the Krell is 3 times as much.Its obvious the Krell MRS is no great value when compared to your SVS Ultra.

As for the "krell pee all over itself" I am amused and surprised!

The MRS built makes other subs look like carboard boxes,or cylinders!

See Mr TV I know Krell since I owned the KSA50(a 50W per channel amp that takes most 100W PC amp to the cleaners and back)and now a FPB600.The FPB built quality and above all sound quality are matched only by some PassLabs,Boulder and more expensive Mark Levinson amps.And the power..LOL...come on down bring all the pro amps you want.Krell makes some very high quality audio components.

And why all this,I plan to get a pair of SVS Ultras anyway?Why this "krell pee all over itself" jokes?

So Mr TV can I ask you now,what do you think about using a Carver TFM-75 with SVS Ultras?

TheEAR(s) Now theears

[TVodhanel]

>>>Mr TV I have no doubt for ten grand you could sell six Ultra bass units and three power amps and outperform a single Krell MRS.<<<

it would be in the $6900 range(for 6 CS_U/3 S1000s). And my guess is a single $2295 package from SVS would keep up with the krell(not "10 grand worth").A pair of HGS18s would likely give it a serious run too(at 1/5th the cost)

>>>As for the "krell pee all over itself" I am amused and surprised!

The MRS built makes other subs look like carboard boxes,or cylinders!<<<

It depends what you're after...would showing off a bil-alum casing impress some of your friends? Probably. As would bragging that it cost 30k I suppose.

>>>See Mr TV I know Krell since I owned the KSA50(a 50W per channel amp that takes most 100W PC amp to the cleaners and back)and now a FPB600.The FPB built quality and above all sound quality are matched only by some PassLabs,Boulder and more expensive Mark Levinson amps.And the power..LOL...come on down bring all the pro amps you want.<<<

No problem...power is power. the subwoofer driver doesn't care if it's getting a clean 500w from a samson amp...or from a krell amp. You could always use a crown K series instead of the samson of course.

>>>Krell makes some very high quality audio components.<<<

I don't doubt krell's quality,I just believe you can get 90-110% of the performance for 10-20% of the cost.

>>>>And why all this,I plan to get a pair of SVS Ultras anyway?Why this "krell pee all over itself" jokes?<<<

I'm not here to sell anything,or *unsale* anything...I just think a 30k subwoofer is silly-overpriced. If performance is priority....why spend 75-90% more....just to brag about how much money you spent?

>>>So Mr TV can I ask you now,what do you think about using a Carver TFM-75 with SVS Ultras?<<<

As long as the amps can provide 500w into a 4ohm load, you'll be maximizing the potential of the CS_U. If you had say 250w into a 4ohm load...you could expect a 2-3dB drop in dynamic headroom capability.

TV