Shock-Late Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 That's not the first time I say that but this time i really mean it!! MY SYSTEM (Scala, Musical fidelity amp, technics class A preamp, Kenwood top-model CD, Nordost interconnects) SOUNDS LIKE **** !!!!! I'm 23, i don't have money, all I can spare goes into my hi-fi, and it sounds no better than my best friend's Pioneer micro!!! it seems unbelievable but it's TRUE!!! It just goes WAY louder...of course, but I'd like GOOD sound! I've tried everything! (changing speakers position, cables, etc, etc) I've CHECKED everything too (drivers, x-overs, amps,...) everything is OK! Actually I think maybe a new preamp is calling for, but i just bought this one five days ago!!! :-(((( The worst thing about my sound is: it doesn't breath. It's muffled, it lacks transparency... I'm fed up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 Tubes, my bony boy, tubes. Sell that solid state stuff and get some nice warm tubes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt Whatley Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 Are you sure your tweeters are not blown? The word "Muffled" often tells me that the problem is just that. Perhaps you could give Trey or myself a call at 800-KLIPSCH. We will be glad to help you figure out the problem. If the system you mentioned is sounding better than a system with Lascalas, there is surely something wrong. -Matt Whatley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted September 19, 2001 Share Posted September 19, 2001 ditto on the tubes! La Scalas are so efficient that most stereo dealers that I know do not know how to sell or select components for this type of big old horn, but muffled? That is not what people complain about with these big old horns. I have driven mine with a simple boom box and while it didn't sound awsome, it wasn't muffled either and it certainly was better than a Pioneer micro. How big is your room? Is there furniture in the way? Did you check the tweeters? If they are working you will hear cymbals that sound a lot more like metal discs than a Pioneer micro ... ------------------ horns, tubes, subs, leather couch & female vocalists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted September 20, 2001 Share Posted September 20, 2001 Shock-Late, I wouldn't spend a lot of time or effort agonizing over tubes vs solid state, cables, things like that. The kind of gross effect you are talking about is much bigger than the kinds of changes that you'd hear moving from one amp to another, or one type of cable to another. Either you just plain don't like the way the La Scalas sound (which is quite possible), or something is very, very wrong. However, calling the Scalas "muffled" is so far away from the typical description of their sound that it leads me to believe that something, someplace, is out of whack. A lot of people don't like them because they think the Scalas are too bright, or too forward, or don't have enough bass, but I've never heard anyone, anywhere, complain that they sound muffled. You said you checked everything - drivers, crossovers, etc. What, exactly, did you do? If you disconnect the squawker and bass horn connections from the crossover board, leaving only the tweeters connected, and play something, what do you hear? Ditto the midrange and woofer? Are you sure that the two speakers are in phase with each other? ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shock-Late Posted September 21, 2001 Author Share Posted September 21, 2001 quote: Originally posted by Ray Garrison: Shock-Late, I wouldn't spend a lot of time or effort agonizing over tubes vs solid state, cables, things like that. The kind of gross effect you are talking about is much bigger than the kinds of changes that you'd hear moving from one amp to another, or one type of cable to another. Either you just plain don't like the way the La Scalas sound (which is quite possible), or something is very, very wrong. However, calling the Scalas "muffled" is so far away from the typical description of their sound that it leads me to believe that something, someplace, is out of whack. A lot of people don't like them because they think the Scalas are too bright, or too forward, or don't have enough bass, but I've never heard anyone, anywhere, complain that they sound muffled. You said you checked everything - drivers, crossovers, etc. What, exactly, did you do? If you disconnect the squawker and bass horn connections from the crossover board, leaving only the tweeters connected, and play something, what do you hear? Ditto the midrange and woofer? Are you sure that the two speakers are in phase with each other? In fact I've got TWO sets of AA x-overs, K55V and K77M. I changed everything, it still sounded the same. But I now know that the problem is the preamp: when i connect directly my CD player into my power amp (both are very good), using the remote controlled output level of the CD, the sound is excellent. Problems came with the preamp. And a friend explained me why yesterday: to his point of view, no old SS preamp can sound good because they all use internal filters to get rid of the noise inherent to every old SS circuitery. Thoses filters are responsible to kill the sound stone dead. Probably this preamp would sound good with less revealing amp and speakers, but in my set-up it sounded like the sound litterally "died" in the speakers instead of opening up to the listening position. Quite a strange impression, because you couldn't tell precisely that "this preamp lacks treble" or "there is distortion". That's really a pity, because otherwise i love this preamp: build quality and knobs are to die for!! Much better stuff that today's most mid-fi preamps!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted September 21, 2001 Share Posted September 21, 2001 I don't know the Technics class A pre-amp, but "muffled" makes me think that something is blown on the unit ... ------------------ horns, tubes, subs, leather couch & female vocalists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Klappenberger Posted September 22, 2001 Share Posted September 22, 2001 Shock-Late, Some pre-amps that were made when op-amps were first incorporated sound dull. I't because of something called "slew-rate". Even though the frequency response is ok, the just can't respond fast enough. That pre-amp you have my be one of those. This may be responsible for a lot of the tube advocates bias against ss equpment. Modern quality op-amps are much better if the desinger used good ones and didn't cut any corners. Al K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted September 22, 2001 Share Posted September 22, 2001 shock, if you are really sure that the preamp is the problem, that the CD player plugged in directly sounded wonderful then I have two possiblities for you (both very cheap)...#1 buy a creek passive preamp, it only switches betwwen two source components and only has a remote volume control but is the most transparent preamp I have ever heard (randy bey uses one as well and I am sure he agrees), I don't know your set up so I am not sure this stripped down unit will work but it is less than $250...#2 in my constant search for better sound from my k-horns I have left some units behind that really were not bad, just did not fit will in my system synergistically...one of these was the creek preamp which I gave to randy and one of these is a SS preamp from sound valves...it is the sv100 Jfet preamplifier...pretty darn transparent...it gathering dust in my closet right now...if you are interested I could ship it to you DHL or UPS collect, if you like it send me back a gift (we can talk about what after you try it out, the gift is optional because "strangers" often feel wierd about accepting gifts...randy forced me to take a gift when I sent him my Creek preamp...) if it doesn't thirll you you can send it back to me the same way (I will pay the reutrn postage) sell it and send me the money, give it to a good friend or family member...whatever...as I siad this thing sits in my closet waiting for my wife to force me to give it away...I hate to see you suffering so (and I know how you fell, the stereo hobby can be a black hole for money)...so if you want, send my your address so I can get a shipping quote...if not I would suggest you buy the Creek unit (online from audioadvisor, used from audiogon/ebay, or somewhere in europe)...warm regards, Tony ------------------ *1993 K-Horns w/ ALK x-overs*Marantz 7T preamp*Dynaco MkIV monoblocks (modded to triode)*Sony CDP-CX350 and CX-230 CD changers*MSB link DACIII (96k upsampling)*MSB silver digital director (for switching and jitter reduction)*Technics M-85 professional Cassette Deck*SAE MK VIII tuner*Luxman PD-272 turntable, Grado Red cartridge*Cardas Crosslink speaker cable*Monster M550i for all interconnects*Monster HTS3500 Reference Powercenter Conditioner This message has been edited by sunnysal on 09-22-2001 at 09:28 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 22, 2001 Share Posted September 22, 2001 Shock-Late what in the blue...are you doing with a Technics preamp?I mean come on,Technics does not make any worthy amps or preamps.All Technics amps and preamps sound like a diesel.LOL You have good speakers,you have a great amp...WHY IN THE BLUE....are you using a Technics? WHY? I have an Audio Research preams and I can tell you your system would sound WAY WAY better if you just sold the Technics and got a real preamp. You can find CJ tube preamps even used for a few dollars that will put to SHAME the Technics.And belive me I talk from experience,not from what some clowns said on some site somewhere. Try a CJ or Audio Research or a BAT preams and you will realise how poor the Technics is in comparison. Please just try you will thank us. Tubes are magic and Technics is like a robot,specs look good but sounds like a zombie,removes life from music.Many music lovers on this board can confirm this. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shock-Late Posted September 24, 2001 Author Share Posted September 24, 2001 quote: Originally posted by sunnysal: shock, if you are really sure that the preamp is the problem, that the CD player plugged in directly sounded wonderful then I have two possiblities for you (both very cheap)...#1 buy a creek passive preamp, it only switches betwwen two source components and only has a remote volume control but is the most transparent preamp I have ever heard (randy bey uses one as well and I am sure he agrees), I don't know your set up so I am not sure this stripped down unit will work but it is less than $250...#2 in my constant search for better sound from my k-horns I have left some units behind that really were not bad, just did not fit will in my system synergistically...one of these was the creek preamp which I gave to randy and one of these is a SS preamp from sound valves...it is the sv100 Jfet preamplifier...pretty darn transparent...it gathering dust in my closet right now...if you are interested I could ship it to you DHL or UPS collect, if you like it send me back a gift (we can talk about what after you try it out, the gift is optional because "strangers" often feel wierd about accepting gifts...randy forced me to take a gift when I sent him my Creek preamp...) if it doesn't thirll you you can send it back to me the same way (I will pay the reutrn postage) sell it and send me the money, give it to a good friend or family member...whatever...as I siad this thing sits in my closet waiting for my wife to force me to give it away...I hate to see you suffering so (and I know how you fell, the stereo hobby can be a black hole for money)...so if you want, send my your address so I can get a shipping quote...if not I would suggest you buy the Creek unit (online from audioadvisor, used from audiogon/ebay, or somewhere in europe)...warm regards, Tony Wow, Tony, I would for sure be interested by your preamp! But would there be a way to send you a gift you would appreciate as much as i would appreciate this one? I mean, you would send me something I need bad, something that would solve my problem, and I wouldn't be able to do the same for you, as I don't have hi-fi stuff i don't use, except things nobody wants (main reason why i still have them ;-)) such as Onkyo tape decks and Thorens non-functioning record player, not to mention old "burned" ss amps... And I would feel bad receiving a gift from you without being able to do the same. Excepted if you like belgian chocolates, and stuff like that!! Maybe there's something here in belgium you cannot find in your country and you ould like to receive? just tell me. Then I'll give you my adress for the UPS price. Many thanks, Tony, for your help and kindness. Warm regards, François Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemcten Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 Shock, as a LaScala owner I must concur with every one else that has posted so far. Get rid of the Technics, use it as a door stop, book end or a boat anchor, but please do not let it ruin your enjoyment of an amazing speaker. I have had excellent results with both tube and solid state pre's on my Scala's. I usually prefer tubes but just purchased a phenomenal SS pre-power. I just hooked up a Perreaux PMF5550 power amp with a Perreaux SM-3 pre and the results are breathtaking. The amp is extreme overkill at 500 wpc. The first 20 wpc are class A and it gently slides into a/b. It is smooth and very easy to listen to. I paid very little for this gear considering the extremely high build and sound quality. The amp is a beast at 105 lbs.Let us know how you make out. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Bey Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 quote: Originally posted by joemcten: I just hooked up a Perreaux PMF5550 power amp with a Perreaux SM-3 pre and the results are breathtaking. The amp is extreme overkill at 500 wpc. The first 20 wpc are class A and it gently slides into a/b. It is smooth and very easy to listen to. I paid very little for this gear considering the extremely high build and sound quality. The amp is a beast at 105 lbs.Let us know how you make out. Joe That is very interesting. I remember Perreaux as a very "high power" amplifier, who didn't usually bother stating power output. When asked, they would answer "How much line current does you house allow?" But, I also heard that they were not good sounding equipment. I would tend to think that with that statement and the company attitude towards power that the first watt (THE most important watt with high efficiency speakers) they would pretty much ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 shock, sorry it took me so long to reply, I have been on a trip...my preamp is far from Hi-end...however I suspect it will sound better than the technics unit...I too agree with the others that your results sound as if your speakers are screwed up...muffled should not describe a pair of La Scalas!...don´t worry about the gift thing, if you want the preamp send me via e-mail your address and I will get a shipping quote (that will be your only cost)...however as others have pointed out (any many of us have learned through experience) these intermediate steps are almost always wasted...saving up for a truly top quality unit is usually much better (and much less frustrating) then going through two or three mid level units on the way...and by the way going straight for gold (after saving up) is always less expensive overall than acquiring all these other units on the way!!!...please give serious consideration to the possiblity that you are not liking the speakers or that they are damaged...can you find some good friend to lug a pair of speakers over to your home in order to hear your electronics through another set of transducers? that would go a long way towards troubleshooting this problem...everything but the tecnics preamp sounds great, I do not think the groos muffling should be due to that component...anyone who can loan you another preamp for an hour or so to see what happens with a preamp swap...well that´s all for now...best of luck, tony ------------------ *1993 K-Horns w/ ALK x-overs*Marantz 7T preamp*Dynaco MkIV monoblocks (modded to triode)*Sony CDP-CX350 and CX-230 CD changers*MSB link DACIII (96k upsampling)*MSB silver digital director (for switching and jitter reduction)*Technics M-85 professional Cassette Deck*SAE MK VIII tuner*Luxman PD-272 turntable, Grado Red cartridge*Cardas Crosslink speaker cable*Monster M550i for all interconnects*Monster HTS3500 Reference Powercenter Conditioner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joemcten Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 Randy, interesting reply. I have never had a problem finding power ratings for Perreaux amps. You said you heard they did not sound that good, was that with your own ears in a unbiased setting or did someone tell you that? In the last 6-7 years, I have had a ton of different amplifiers both tube and solid state, ranging from Threshold,CJ, Cary,Plinius,Aragon,Audio analogue,ASL,Krell etc... I have had great examples of both and very mediocre ones as well. To my ears they can both be excellent.I am not interested in stating one is better than another. The best set up as we all know, is whatever sounds good to you. If you are actually interested in knowing how this Perreaux equipment sounds, here is a decent description and comparison. It comapres in smoothness and warmth to the SA series from Threshold. Plinius also has a similar sound(I have owned both) Soundstage is wide,deep, and it is free of any grain. Midrange is clear and defined, with a lot of air. Bass is very extended and it is extremely quick. There is nothing artificial to the sound. The treble region is smooth and as extended as one would want. The big Mac amps like the 500 mono's also have these musical qualities. Randy, when I want tubes, I pull out my modified ST-70 that has been changed to Class A and utilizes a directly heated 6b4g as the output tube. It has about 12 wpc and I enjoy this amp very much as well. I am one of those guys who unfortunately likes to try just about anything I can get my hands on(As long as my wallet is willing)Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shock-Late Posted September 30, 2001 Author Share Posted September 30, 2001 quote: Originally posted by sunnysal: shock, sorry it took me so long to reply, I have been on a trip...my preamp is far from Hi-end...however I suspect it will sound better than the technics unit...I too agree with the others that your results sound as if your speakers are screwed up...muffled should not describe a pair of La Scalas!...don´t worry about the gift thing, if you want the preamp send me via e-mail your address and I will get a shipping quote (that will be your only cost)...however as others have pointed out (any many of us have learned through experience) these intermediate steps are almost always wasted...saving up for a truly top quality unit is usually much better (and much less frustrating) then going through two or three mid level units on the way...and by the way going straight for gold (after saving up) is always less expensive overall than acquiring all these other units on the way!!!...please give serious consideration to the possiblity that you are not liking the speakers or that they are damaged...can you find some good friend to lug a pair of speakers over to your home in order to hear your electronics through another set of transducers? that would go a long way towards troubleshooting this problem...everything but the tecnics preamp sounds great, I do not think the groos muffling should be due to that component...anyone who can loan you another preamp for an hour or so to see what happens with a preamp swap...well that´s all for now...best of luck, tony Tony, when I said my system was "muffled" i was in fact talking about it when listening to a particular rock record that i like very much and who is particularly difficult for most electronics to reproduce correctly, because there are so much things going on that with the wrong set-up you don't hear anything more than...noise, and with this preamp that's actually all i heard from this record: lead vocals completely hidden by other sounds, drums sounding so "far away"...It's not an audiophile recording, of course, but as it is the music i like I want it to sound good. And believe me, when I unplug the preamp, going directly into the power amp (wich is specially good with rock, and that's why I choose this one after listening to quite a few different amps) i hear everything, and the lead vocals are present, and the sound is all klipsch (uh, and yes it means more harsh than muffled!! ;-) ) I remember i had the same experience with an integrated AMC tube amp i tried a few months ago: with jazz or classical it sounded quite OK (tough not particularly great nor sweet), but with my favourite music everything sounded horrible, muffled and melted together. With less "chaotic" music this preamp has a "reasonable" level of resolution, but still lacks life and excitement. Sound is flat and dead, with no dynamics and a "cupped-hands" midrange, wich combined with the already slightly "horny"(!) midrange sound from my old scalas, makes for a very disappointing result... I'm well aware that your preamp isn't high-end, but it's surely "higher-end" than my technics, and anyway my CD player and power amp aren't high-end, considering their modest price, but i'm sure it would be difficult to find better without spending at least twice as much .... What's more, I don't know this preamp, and I like to discover brands from the US that are not distributed here in europe...kinda having something "different", even if it's not from a high-end brand. That's cool. Of course, I don't know how much UPS will ask for the shipping, since it's quite from US to Europe, and if it's the price of a good preamp here then it's not worth bothering you, but frankly I hope it won't be the case!:-) I already sent my adress to you via e-mail, let me know if you didnt receive it. Warm regards , François Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai2000 Posted September 30, 2001 Share Posted September 30, 2001 Hi Shock-Late, I think you might find shipment to Europe a bit cheaper if you used the local postal service rather than UPs or any other carrier like that (although shipment might take longer - depending on how much you want to spend!). Perhaps it might not be a totally stupid idea to consider this option. Good luck with your preamp. Wolfram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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