D-MAN Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Some musings on the SLAM factor and/or lack thereof... Extreme Lows or More Slam ========================= Is there a preference? It seems that you can't have one without sacrificing a bit of the other (my experience at least). I suspect that the speakers with more punch tend to move out of the showroom faster than those without it. I recently heard a stock pair of Khorns that got up to the flap your pant-legs SPL just fine (and not painfully, either). But they didn't SLAM you with that absolutely convincing "solid" bass punch to the solar plexis. But they DO go LOW on extremely few watts, that is undeniable. I am trying to decide which is preferred: the SLAM vs. the EXTREME LOWS. In my experience, as a general rule, you can have one or the other and appropriate combinations of the two at the same time, but you will SELDOM HAVE BOTH IN EQUAL PORTIONS, except with a very elaborate setup or at least a rather expensive driver (good luck on that one) and alot of empirical testing. And we are NOT using an EQ - that would be BLASPHEMY! Khorn Crossover Point ===================== I think that the crossover point of the Khorn at approx 400Hz is a limiting factor on its ability to SLAM. The mid-and-upper bass frequencies that give all the punch are in the 500-700Hz range, I figure. The fact that the mid-and-upper bass frequencies get handed off to the midrange driver fairly low is the limiting factor, due to the limited ability of a smaller diaphragm to move the amount of air needed for effective bass SLAM. However, the tradeoff for that is that the low frequencies (in the case of the Khorn and K33E combination) are extremely efficient, almost a sub-woofer in essence and that means that the drivers power bandwidth is "tilted" towards the low end of the spectrum (i.e., its falloff at around 400Hz as noted in various references). The fairly low crossover is determined somewhat by the colorations caused by the Khorn folding, however, it could be increased without much sonic "damage" IMO. However, it calls for a different driver and that means a different throat cavity opening size, of course. So it MAY be a path that once started down, there is no turning back without a great deal of pain. Putting a different driver in the Khorn naturally changes the low frequency power bandwidth, but again, the limiting factor is the stock crossover point. If the driver was changed out, the crossover point could conceivably be moved up at least to 550Hz or so, greatly increasing the available punch. It would also be more expensive, no way around that. I was musing about the differences between the Jubilee and the classic Khorn having read Daddy-Dee's review and am wondering if the SLAM factor (which HAS to be there due to its design) of the Jubilee is THE MAIN element that is so interesting to the listeners as compared to the Khorn. It remains that the Khorn could conceivably go lower in response due to its design. Having never heard a Jubilee, I can only surmise its attributes based on some experimentation on my horns. The point I am making is that I currently am enraptured by the punchier quality that different drivers achieve when crossed over higher than the Khorn's 400Hz. Relatively cheap drivers can effectively replace the K33E as a bass driver, but they tend to be "tilted" towards the mid-and-upper bass vs. the extreme lows (although still effectively "there"). As the SLAM factor goes up, the EXTREME LOW frequency efficiency seems to go down. This effect causes one to naturally listen at a SLIGHTLY louder level; this in turn changes the power bandwidth(s) of the drivers, and that changes the soundstage from being somewhat "set-back" to being slightly more "forward". But it is more "engaging", somehow more involving and more life-like. I am definitely leaning towards the more punch thing. Originally, I was suspecting that it was just an infatuation with a "new" sound. So I'm still listening and "waiting" for it to get "old". It hasn't happened yet. While we would all PREFER to have a Khorn that "beats the daylights out of us" and STILL gives us the bass that it is reknown for, it is presumably unusual for that to occur. Do you guys have an opinion on what you would theoretically prefer if you had to choose, one over the other: Lows vs. Slam? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 With the RSW-12 I got the lows and with the Hughes AK-100 I got the slam. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 11, 2005 Author Share Posted August 11, 2005 JKK, Sounds like SLAM is preferred (with subwoofer for lows)? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 "The mid-and-upper bass frequencies that give all the punch are in the 500-700Hz range," I thinkthe mid bass slam is near 100Hz... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 11, 2005 Author Share Posted August 11, 2005 Colin, I think its "bulk" is a higher range - there would be no problem with "slam" from a stock Khorn or practically any other speaker (even Bose) if it was centered around 100Hz... But I would agree that 100Hz is part-and-parcel, but it is quite a wide range of frequencies that "makes up" what we would call "SLAM". DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 I've always interpreted slam to mean the absense of low end (ie, someone claiming that the heresy has "slam") I'm not sure you're going to accomplish much until you start taking down measurements and define numerically what the differences are. For example, I see no reason why it matters which driver is playing which frequencies...a midrange driver and a woofer are both going to be "moving the same amount of air" for the same SPL. The dispersion patterns and distortion characteristics however might be different. (Though I wouldn't exactly support the process of choosing/tuning your distortion). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 I have been thinking of crossover points and thier effect on speaker performance...I agree with d-man, I think 800hz is better than 400 or 300hz and if I could have my ideal I would cross over at 1,000 or 1,200hz... that is why I am so excited by the jubilee bass bin, its greatest achievement IMHO is that it can cover 30-1500 (-10) and 35-800 (-5), keeping most of the musical instruments and voices within one driver set (the jubilee "bass" bin), the upper driver then only handles piccilo, a few piano keys, some harp strings and the harmonics of the other instruments...talk about single driver! regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 talk about FMD... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 ---------------- On 8/11/2005 3:27:21 PM sunnysal wrote: I have been thinking of crossover points and thier effect on speaker performance...i would cross over at 1,000 or 1,200hz... ---------------- Lotsa Real Studio Monitor speakers ... are 2 way, and cross at 1200 Hz.. 2 examples,, Latec 19's, JBL 4430 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 11, 2005 Author Share Posted August 11, 2005 Hi Tony, The woofer moves much more air than the midrange driver for the same frequency (the crossover point is the determining factor along with the low frequency capability of the midrange driver in question). That's a matter of physics (diaphragm diameter X excursion). There is an overlap of several hundred Hz between the two (in the case of the Khorn, for instance). The 6db slope used in a first order crossover (stock Klipsch) allows for overlapping, but at an ever reducing power level for the woofer along with its natural higher frequency rolloff. Where that point occurs is important to the available SLAM factor (mid-and-upper bass range); how much acoustic output per given frequency. Bottom line is that you'll never get a midrange to slam to the same degree that a large cone driver is capable of within its respective bandpass. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 yup duke that´s right. tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 11, 2005 Author Share Posted August 11, 2005 Here's my definition of SLAM (you gotta bear with me, and I'm thinking 15" driver): Not a lack of low end, but a solid, authoritative low frequency wave front that includes elements of lows and upper bass frequencies so that it is thunderous and startlingly abrupt and "clean" at the same instant that it hits you in the chest and rattles everything around you. The kind of bass that changes your heartbeat at loud SPL's, but is convincingly "solid" and well defined at moderate SPL's. You definitely know it when you "hear" it, but perhaps its somewhat tactile? I suppose that it has to do with the leading edge of the waveform as being somewhat "square" or abrupt, the higher frequencies cleanly defining its "edge"? {edit} I suppose that it is more often related to PA-type speakers than home hi-fi ones (Altec A7 comes to mind). But being a 2 or 3 way doesn't matter. The point at which its crossed over is the critical point, IMO. {edit2} I also am presuming that it is a mix of coherent frequencies, is that a mistake? DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Well with four Klipschorn's, two Cornwalls, a La Scala, and twin 15" Velodyne Servo's with dual DBX 3BX-DS units with up to 10db Impact Restoration available (you have no idea the slam factor these can add) I can make your chest hurt and crap your pants at the same time. I got the SLAM and I got the EXTREME LOWS! With all new networks I got the MIDS and HIGHS too. Next question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 11, 2005 Author Share Posted August 11, 2005 Frzn, I'll bet you do! The answer as I'm beggining to take it is: SLAM is best. The lows can be filled in by a sub as needed. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZAKO Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 DMAN.....I also found the slam facter lacking in the Khorn. I went to the JBL 2205 woofer to give more difination in the 400hz region But the mid driver also needed improvement at the xover point. The JBL mid drivers were then studied for this remedy. The JBL 2482 (phenaulic) 375/2440 & 2441, The 2450/2451SL, TAD 4001, 4002, 4002 all did better also the TAD 1601 woofer worked very well. I suppose the JBL 2123 10" x2 crossing over at 300hz would help in supporting the slam effect in the mid range area. Warren could comment on that. As far as extreemly low frequencies on the Khorn...Thats not possible due to cutoff horn design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted August 11, 2005 Author Share Posted August 11, 2005 Maron, thanks. I agree with your take on it. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Yep, I think you guys have it right, this slam to which you refer too is a mid bass peak (~120-150Hz) while the LF extension is, well, MUCH lower in the first 1-1.5 octaves. A properly balanced system that accurately covers the frequency spectrum will have both, if the playback material has it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdnfay Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 My Jubilee clones definitly have more slam(crossed at 700hz)and the lows are down a few db. Now my Khorns and belle are doing theater duty. More on the Jubilee when they are completely finished. Big D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 FMD is right. Yuck. There's some serious stuff in that 400 > 1000 range, and I sure as heck don't want it coming out of a freaking bass bin. I'll take the clean and solid whack of my Klipschorn's bass over the slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundog Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 The Khorn produces bass that sounds the closest I've ever heard to a live performance. If you want artificial "slam" it is not the speaker for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.