Kriton Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Recently, I came upon a thread in another, unnamed forum of a couple of guys who went to the SVS factory in Ohio, and took some pictures, what specifically stood out were the pictures fo the Plus and Ultra subwoofer drivers sitting next to each other...the Ultra is a monster in comparison... So my question is this, what is the real difference? If the two drivers sound at the same frequencies (depending on the tuning), and each are played at the same power level on the same equipment, will they sound different from each other? Or is the difference that the Ultra can handle higher db/wattage/amps/SPL for more sustained periods of time at higher rates than the Plus driver, or is it just about bottoming out? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 ---------------- On 8/24/2005 12:50:03 PM Kriton wrote: Recently, I came upon a thread in another, unnamed forum not too long ago of a couple of guys who went to the SVS factory in Ohio, and took some pictures, what specifically stood out were the pictures fo the Plus and Ultra subwoofer drivers sitting next to each other...the Ultra is a monster in comparison... So my question is this, what is the real difference? If the two drivers sound at the same frequencies (depending on the tuning), and each are played at the same power level on the same equipment, will they sound different from each other? Or is the difference that the Ultra can handle higher db/wattage/amps/SPL for more sustained periods of time at higher rates than the Plus driver, or is it just about bottoming out? K ---------------- At the same SPL and same frequency both the dB and Ultra woofers should be very close in distortion and very hard to tell apart.I think the Ultra may have a better cone acceleration due to a more potent motor structure(magnet/VC).But due to the very low frequency they reproduce this impacts little on performance. The Ultra woofer has a higher peak to peak and linear travel as well as its VC can take more watts before thermal breakdown(roasting in other words). SO yes the Ultra is a mighty woofer among super woofers but the dB represents a better value for the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 Taken from http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201221 The TV-12 Driver - A Closer Look: It is common knowledge the TV-12 Ultra driver has about a 1.5-2.0 dB advantage in clean output over the dB-12 Plus driver. But that doesn't tell the whole story. Anyone who has heard the TV-12 driver will tell you it definitely has a unique sound. Superlatives like refined, detailed, robust, authoritative, and bold are common from Ultra listeners. As part of this review, I asked TV-12 designer Tom Vodhanel why the Ultra driver performs so well. He said the difference lies in the motor design. The magnets are composed of strontium ferrite, with an extremely high field strength, providing excellent VC/cone control characteristics. The VC is "underhung" and always stays in gap, thus maintaining a consistently high motor strength (BL) over the entire excursion range. The maximum linear travel (Xmax) is quite high, about 28-30 mm. The aluminum VC is a proprietary 10-layer flat-wound design that has extreme thermal power handling capability (several thousand watts for 8-10 seconds). If the TV-12 is being fed a steady 500 watts and a 1500 watt transient is spiked into the signal, the VC retains the ability to translate that transient into a useable increase in sound pressure. A lesser driver already being pushed beyond its thermal limits would simply ignore that transient. In fact, (TV-12 builder) TC Sounds acknowledges that no one else in the industry uses a similar design because it is so expensive. How does the Ultra driver sound to my ears? The TV-12 separates notes and conveys subtle changes in timbre better than any other woofer I have yet heard. The deepest notes seem to well out of a fathomless pit; not from the subwoofer itself. The TV-12 doesn't just pressurize the room, it pushes through the room, and is visceral even at low volumes. At high volumes it remains completely composed, and really digs for that last ounce of deep impact on big transients. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted August 24, 2005 Author Share Posted August 24, 2005 By db I am assuming that is the Plus driver? Crap, that review makes me think I should have held out for an Ultra...I love this 2039+ though boys. I can't really imagine something that **much** better. Anyone have one of these things, and has made a comparison? I love the tech talk, but I want a forum member to tell me what the difference is, if they can... Thanks for the replies! K p.s.: By the by, the picts from that other thread showed one of the new hand rubbed top-of-their-line box woofers, and they are HUGE, enormous things, simply dwarfed the TV in the picture...amazing (what would you something like for - low sound wave warfare?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I hesitate to respond here as I am not interested in becoming embroiled in what so often becomes an emotional debate over brands and models. The two commercial subs I run are the Velodyne HGS-18 Series2s and the SVS PC-Ultra. Short of dealing with the Velodynes and their lower distortion extended LF output at high SPLs capable of playing with the LaScala or KHorn, I haven't found a sub for the money that out performs the SVS Ultra for the money. Regarding the SVS Plus, it is an excellent economy sub, and an excellent return for the money. But the Ultra exhibits a better flatter extended frequency response at greater a SPL then the Plus. So, if you have a use for a sub with the greater efficiency for use with, say, the Klipsch Heritage line, or if you just like BIG explosions and special effects for HT and delight in terrorizing your cat, you can't beat the Ultra. I will say that if you can find a sub that exhibits as good or better response characteristics then the Ultra for less money, buy it! And if you don't have the money to spare, or the need for the additional efficiency, the Plus should do fine. It is a fine value for the money, especially as you save money over the conventional retail marketing model due to the direct marketing model. And that being said, while the woofer is not comparable to the Ultra and is closer in performance to the Plus, for the money, the Parts Express Titan (model 3?) seems from all reports to be another excellent value, although as I have not personally heard it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 ---------------- On 8/24/2005 1:49:55 PM Kriton wrote: ...I love this 2039+ though boys. I can't really imagine something that better. ---------------- I get a chuckle out of this comment because my 2039+ can be overwhelming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted August 24, 2005 Author Share Posted August 24, 2005 Well I guess that is my point..So Velodyne plays flatter at higher SPL's...Wow, that would be like Texas stadium at half time levels... I just can't even imagine it for HT, really... K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted August 24, 2005 Share Posted August 24, 2005 I like it best for H.T. because it stays quiet then BAM it comes out screaming...lol. For music I keep it down a bit because to dial it in just right it needs to adjusted be differently for each song and volume setting. The Ultra driver does look huge and recently I have wondered how the 2039+ would sound "with" an Ultra driver installed if it would fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 I think what most people are trying to say, is that the drivers differ the most when playing at high volumes. You see, as the driver approaches it's maximum excursion... it's performance will deviate the most from it's "published" specs. The great differences described are usually within that region. A properly designed driver with more useable excursion does not only have the capability of playing louder, but it'll be more linear at the same volume. This is due to it being further from it's excursion extremes than a less capable unit. How much difference does it make to most people? Depends on how loud and hard you push it. At lower volumes, performance should be similar. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bytor33 Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 I was in the same dilemma Kriton and chose to keep the 2039 PC+. I think it just comes down to how loud you listen to your music/movies most of the time. If you go all out, crazy loud quite often go for the Ultra driver. Personally, my ears can't take it and while I do go quite loud sometimes, it's never loud enough to reach the limits of my sub or my receiver/speakers for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted August 25, 2005 Author Share Posted August 25, 2005 I tend to agree...I am going to have to get a much larger room, or a much sturdier house before I upgrade to an ultra. Playing the 75-85 decibel test tone from my pre into the sub damn near separates the drywall from the studs as it is, and I never (well hardly ever) listen to the system at volumes like that... Thanks for the information, I will do some reading on driver excursion, pretty inteesting stuff...so am I correct in saying that a stiffer driver (which will by construction travel less and require assumably more power to move), will be able to handle higher volumes? Isn't the trade off for higher volume less sensitivity and possible delay? Do they get around that by not making the cone material stiffer but the magnetic push pull more dynamic? Or am I just way off base here? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formica Posted August 25, 2005 Share Posted August 25, 2005 ---------------- On 8/25/2005 7:48:20 AM Kriton wrote: ...so am I correct in saying that a stiffer driver (which will by construction travel less and require assumably more power to move), will be able to handle higher volumes? ---------------- No, actually the driver will require more excursion or "travel" to play louder... and the compliancy (stiffness) of the suspension isn't a defining factor. To build a high SPL driver, you need a suspension (surround and spider) that will allow substantial travel as-well-as a motor (voice-coil and magnet) which will be able to power it at the extremes of that travel. Most of the black magic described, is on the motor structure end. The idea is to keep the voice-coil in the magnetic gap (eg: over-hung is one way of doing it) as well as the magnetic flux in the gap constant (eg: XBL is one way of doing that)... so that as the cone stretches to the extremes, the motor will still be responding to the music signal. Stiff suspensions and higher efficiency drivers are different matters. Reading up on Hoffman's Iron Law may give you some insights into why car subwoofers are small and inefficient while home ones are much larger and require substantially less power. Having a stiff suspension will raise the drivers resonant frequency and reduce it's bass extension capability. Cone material "stiffness" OTOH is more of a marketing thing than one which substantially affects performance of a woofer/subwoofer. It is a fascinating subject... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Greenway Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 I think if I upgrade my 20-39 Plus for the Ultra and tried to "discover" the difference my wife would pack up the kid and leave. It ain't worth it! [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 24, 2005 Share Posted September 24, 2005 Well I guess that is my point..So Velodyne plays flatter at higher SPL's...Wow, that would be like Texas stadium at half time levels... I just can't even imagine it for HT, really... K NOPE The Velodyne HGS18(any vesrion)goes very deep,distortion is kept in check and very low.But the SVS Ultra(let's take a PB2-Ultra)will play very deep(below 25Hz) LOUDER than the HGS18.Unless you corner load the big HGS and place the Ultra in a very nasty spot. SVS is king of DEEP and LOUD,Velodyne's HGS series are kings of VERY LOW DISTORTION and DEFINITION. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmiles Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 OK Ear what are your thoughts on the Velo DD series? Regards, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 Velodyne's DD series are Velodyne's most accurate subwoofers to date.All of the HGS goodness plus the auto EQ. Plenty of output,no audible distortion and above all clean sub bass.For anyone who wants a solid subwoofer for music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Nasty Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 You can also see the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freak Nasty Posted September 27, 2005 Share Posted September 27, 2005 I am interested in the SVS's too now, since i can't get the Klipsch KW 120's, i am interested in either the SVS B4 plus or the SVS PB 12 Ultra/2 they cost only $370 to send to Australia, but very hard to decide because of the driver thing.. but like i've heard before, if i won;t be playing it a extreme levels.. the B4 plus ( db12 driver ) should be a good choice.. over the Ultra 2's .. would look good in the new Piano black finish.. too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 I would say the ultras would sound better since they have inheritly less distortion then the plus drivers. So even though it may not be as loud and also you stated extreme levels are not you. I would suggest the ultras as they go just as low and nearly as loud as a b4 I would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted September 28, 2005 Share Posted September 28, 2005 Distortion begins at the point where linear travel begins to fail. Therefore, the B4 and 12 Ultra 2 will have similar sonic characteristics, however the Ultra 2 will reach that point before the B4 (as the Ultra driver is not twice as capable as the plus driver). Other factors being equal (such as clean amplification and such), the B4 will have less innate distortion. But many say the Ultras tend to have a different tonal quality to them. Subtle, but more precise and impactful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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