damonrpayne Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 I love this next gen DVD stuff. Of all the various writeups, projector central's is nice and concise: http://www.projectorcentral.com/hddvd_bluray.htm The one point I disagree with is that HD-DVD's lower cost will help it gain early consumer acceptance. These players are going to be much more expensive than a normal DVD drive when they come out. The first round of consumers to buy these things, the early adopters, are not going to be daunted by paying $700 for a BluRay drive vs. $600 for an HD-DVD drive. I want native 1080 res on disk! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottscay Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 You're right that an extra $100 isn't going to swing market share away from Blu-ray. What will make Blu-ray lose is the 3-5 month head start that HD-DVD will get on releasing titles. HD-DVD will have players and over 100 titles for sale before Christmas, while Blu-ray isn't going to have players available until end Q1 2006, and there have been no anouncements on content availability. I much prefer Blu-ray as a format, but I fear they lost the race and will not recover. Hopefully a united format will yet emerge, but with the first HD-DVD disks being released in the next 2 months, I doubt it. I think HD-DVD will be the emergent champion relatively quickly. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 5, 2005 Author Share Posted September 5, 2005 Scott, Another nail in the HD-DVD coffin is that they will not have any titles out before xmas. Recent announcements have them releasing next year, not far ahead of BluRay at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 I hate to toss water on either camp, but whichever format ultimately wins, SDRM, the new digital rights management tools on steroids will negate much of the actual value of either format. And the silence regarding the new capabilities of this technology has been deafening with everyone simply extolling upon the perceived benefits without looking at the real tools that will limit much of the desired usage. Its a rather sobering picture. But with any luck we will at least have a large format computer data tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 5, 2005 Author Share Posted September 5, 2005 Explain to me please how legitimate copyright protection conflicts with the legitimate use of the copyrighted material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 It doesn't. And simply having media that can hold a 6 hour+ movie doesn't add anything to the movie either. Nor does having 1080p support when networks and movie houses are not supporting it. But much of what various folks have spoken of in the past will be curtailed by the SDRM technology. The fact that media will hold exorbitant amounts of data will not simply allow you to archive your media. And SDRM technology on the prerecorded media will prevent much of the archiving that has been referred to! Just as near 1TB hard drives have not radically changedm personal computing capability. And ironically the blue laser technology will benefit computer storage more then video technology. And none of the platforms contributes to that use. Simply having a car that can go 1000 mph does not mean that you are going to get to Kroger any faster! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARPRINCE Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Hopefully a united format will yet emerge, but with the first HD-DVD disks being released in the next 2 months, I doubt it. I think HD-DVD will be the emergent champion relatively quickly. Scott I'm not so sure about that. I believe PLAYSTATION 3 will come out with the BLU-RAY format when launched in 2006 so you have to count all the gamers buying the unit alone (count me in). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 5, 2005 Author Share Posted September 5, 2005 It doesn't. And simply having media that can hold a 6 hour+ movie doesn't add anything to the movie either. Nor does having 1080p support when networks and movie houses are not supporting it. But much of what various folks have spoken of in the past will be curtailed by the SDRM technology. The fact that media will hold exorbitant amounts of data will not simply allow you to archive your media. And SDRM technology on the prerecorded media will prevent much of the archiving that has been referred to! Just as near 1TB hard drives have not radically changedm personal computing capability. And ironically the blue laser technology will benefit computer storage more then video technology. And none of the platforms contributes to that use. Simply having a car that can go 1000 mph does not mean that you are going to get to Kroger any faster! Having media that can hold a film at 1080i or better resolution as well as numerous discrete high bitrate sound channels does not add anything to the movie? I beg to differ. 1080p support is not necessarily part of the BluRay or HD-DVD specs. There are some 1080p displays out now, in this case hardware is ahead of software and why not? I'm not sure who referred to "archiving", wasn't me nor the article I believe. Since I do not copy DVDs to which I am not the copyright owner (home movies), any form of SDRM does not concern me in the least. Is the quasi-legal argument concerning your right to make a "backup" of media you own is your biggest beef? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottscay Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 If indeed HD-DVD format players and media fail to get out early (as already announced) then I would gladly agree that the format war is more evenly balanced. Unless there are some insurmountable production problems, I would be _very_ surprised if HD-DVD fails to hit their announced target dates. Their main advantage at this point is greater studio appeal, and presumed market penetration during the 2-5 month head start they'd have. If they miss that, the field is wide open and Blu-Ray's superior technical features may yet win the day. Or...perhaps we would then see a united format, which would certainly be in the consumers' best intersts. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwinr Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Sony have announced that the PlayStation 3 will have SACD multi channel capability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Is the quasi-legal argument concerning your right to make a "backup" of media you own is your biggest beef? Heck no, but it does limit much of the potential capability that the volume of data storage presents! But thanks you for mis-characterizing my various posts! And SDRM does limit what many folks have in the past mentioned as a potential anticipated use for the formats, regardless of whatever you want to do with it! My biggest beef is that I find no major compelling reason to buy a media center in order to play 2-3 games! If I need a Blu-Ray unit, I will do so for my PC. I am not interested in spending the money for the emerging 1080p TVs when no major studio or network has committed to producing source material, and i really don't care if someone does. The thought of seeing the Simpsons or a football game on 1080p just isn't a compelling reason to make the exorbitant investment. And I suspect many others will feel the same way! But if you are driven to buy a game console for a couple of hundred bucks to listen to your MP3s - hey, knock yourself out! My gut feeling is that by the time they finally figure out what they are going to do about the competing formats, holographic storage will render them both moot, just like DAT and the Laser Disc were! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Explain to me please how legitimate copyright protection conflicts with the legitimate use of the copyrighted material. Using plain DVDs as an example... The DVD protection scheme is silly because it doesn't inhibit bit-for-bit copies at all (for mass production copying), but inhibits playback! Means you can't legally view a DVD using Linux freeware (in the US at least). What that really the original intent? Other abuses lead me to make re-authored copies of DVDs I purchased: - Forced previews when the menu is locked out. Sometimes even the 'skip' button is locked-out! - Presence of violent or otherwise unsuitable previews on children movie DVDs. - Forced display of FBI warning (doesn't apply to me in Canada) for extended period of time. - Forced display of multiple animated corporate logos before beginning of the movie. - Excessively long menu animation before any action is permitted. Gotta hate them. Especially when popping in a movie for the kids in the car on a long trip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 6, 2005 Author Share Posted September 6, 2005 Explain to me please how legitimate copyright protection conflicts with the legitimate use of the copyrighted material.Using plain DVDs as an example... The DVD protection scheme is silly because it doesn't inhibit bit-for-bit copies at all (for mass production copying), but inhibits playback! Means you can't legally view a DVD using Linux freeware (in the US at least). What that really the original intent? The Linux argument is legitimate, yes. Linux freeware users likely represent an infinitesimal portion of their users though, and they are not concerned. As for the other things such as the menus and ads, yeah it sucks, but that does not give you the right to edit the disc to remove them and watch your clean copy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olorin Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 How does making a copy without the content I find objectionable differ from the sort of fair use that allows me to make compilations of songs from albums I have purchased? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Explain to me please how legitimate copyright protection conflicts with the legitimate use of the copyrighted material. Using plain DVDs as an example... The DVD protection scheme is silly because it doesn't inhibit bit-for-bit copies at all (for mass production copying), but inhibits playback! Means you can't legally view a DVD using Linux freeware (in the US at least). What that really the original intent? The Linux argument is legitimate, yes. Linux freeware users likely represent an infinitesimal portion of their users though, and they are not concerned. As for the other things such as the menus and ads, yeah it sucks, but that does not give you the right to edit the disc to remove them and watch your clean copy. The hell it doesn't. I purchased it, I have a right to do with it as I wish, so long as I do not redistribute it. Don't tell me for one second that we are still conceding ownership of the copies we legally purchase to the original producers. That will be the END of me buying music, movies, or anything else from the producers of that media. If I don't own what I buy, I'm not buying it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 6, 2005 Author Share Posted September 6, 2005 The hell it doesn't. I purchased it, I have a right to do with it as I wish, so long as I do not redistribute it. Don't tell me for one second that we are still conceding ownership of the copies we legally purchase to the original producers. That will be the END of me buying music, movies, or anything else from the producers of that media. If I don't own what I buy, I'm not buying it at all. Griff, sadly, when you purchase something in this great country of ours, you are doing so on the seller's terms. Your options are to buy from a seller with different terms, negotiate new terms with the seller, or not to buy. You do not "own", in the true sense of the word, any of the content on the DVDs or CDs you've bought, you have licensed that content for use. You own the DVD sure, but the 1s and 0s on it are licensed. This is not new to either of the new HD formats. As far as "negotiating new terms with the seller", this has happened before. A while back Disney was putting some "Coming soon" ads on the same physical track as the FBI warning is on, meaning our DVD playes will not skip it. They got such an influx of hatemail for this they stopped the practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griffinator Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 you have licensed that content for use. Sure I have. I didn't license the "previews", nor is there any clause in the licensing contract that says I may not make a new copy of the disc that does not contain these previews, so long as it is for my own personal use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 6, 2005 Author Share Posted September 6, 2005 I think you are talking about the notorious Fair Use laws, which I believe have very much been destroyed in court. This is something I will look into more closely. I hear you though, I'd love to have copies of all my favorite films in "superbit" mode so to speak, just the simplest possible menu and the movie on the disc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Griff, Damon is correct regarding the law and your purchasing the "right to view" rather than your owning the material. The same is true with software... Perhaps now you see where the Secure Digital Rights Management Schemes that are emerging with dramatically enhanced capabilities- and which employ AES encryption & prevent the cute but simple bit copying schemes that were prevalent since the mid 80's and Copy2Mac - may impact your pent up demand to run out and buy these things! But many will! Quite frankly I have resisted buying any of the dedicated game consoles up to now, and I will make any necessary adjustments to my computer before I buy a wannabe media center for which I have no desire. It will be an interesting market development race coupled with the silly DVD format war which will most likely not be resolved until the Holographic DVD is breathing down its back! Unless you have a compelling need for large computer data storage, I would not race to be an early adopter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damonrpayne Posted September 6, 2005 Author Share Posted September 6, 2005 Digital Cryptography is a hobby of mine dragonfyr, can you post links that talk about AES encryption in the SDRM supported by either of the new DVD standards? I'd like to see exactly what they are using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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