Blown 1989 Klipschorn Tweeter Replacement Help Needed ?

[ka7niq]

I just bought some used 1989 Walnut KHorns that I believe have one blown tweeter.

I was unable to check the fuse as I was in a "take it or leave it" buying situation.

The price was right, so I took it.

The speakers have a crossover that says AK - 2 on it , and the tweeter has a 533 number on it, as best as we could make out.

What are my options ?

If I go on Ebay, what tweeters will work, etc ?

What does AK 2 mean ?

What used tweeters do i look for, or is it better to just replace the diapraghm's ?

Thank you, I got the speakers for only 1500 dollars!

[MrMcGoo]

The tweeterS can be rebuilt. Bob Crites (BEC) does them for reasonable prices. The tweeters need to match, so two new diaphragms should be installed. The crossovers are getting a bit old, so it would be a good idea to test/replace any bad capacitors.

Bill

[michael hurd]

Bob Crites can supply you with replacement diapragms for your tweeters, and there was a step by step procedure, with pictures. Possibly you can find it, using the search function.

It is a lot cheaper to replace the diaphragms, than replace the tweeter ( klipsch designation is K-77 ). The K-77 is no longer available from Klipsch, you might be able to find them used on an online auction site.

You can contact Bob on the forum here, his handle is BEC, he can supply the diaphragms if you are able to replace them, alternately, you could ship him the tweeters and he could replace both diapraghms. I would replace both, then keep the used one as a spare.

[WMcD]

I agree. Bob will do you right. BTW, is it Chris? You can buy a replacement diaphragm and do the work yourself. It requires some soldering and mechanical skills.

One of the earlier crossovers was the A. Then there was the AA. These were used in the K-Horn, Belle, and LaScala.

The next step was to create crossovers specific to the individual models. So you'll see AK- , AB-, and AL-.

I don't have a schematic here for you but you can find one by searching the forum. Or someone will put it up.

Naturally you can check for voice coil continuity with an ohm meter. It is going to be around 5 ohms, or open.

If the voice coil is open, you might want to be careful running power into the speaker system without an 8 ohm (or so) resistor as a substitute. The problem is that without a load, a second or thinrd order crossover cause an L-C resonant circuit across the amp. So you've got a dead short at some frequency. People have lost amps or crossover components as a result.

Congrats on your purchase. In my experience it gauling to find you've got damaged goods. OTOH, if this is the only problem, you're in good shape.

Best,

Gil, AB9BE

[mikebse2a3]

If you have a meter you can check to see if the voice coil is open by measuring it. You should see a reading of about 6.2 ohms.

If you don't read the proper resistance you can pull the tweeter out and recheck it right where the rivet(THIS IS WHERE THE VOICE COIL IS ACTUALLY SOLDERED ON THE K77M) for the hookup terminal is and if you get a good reading there then you might repair it yourself if you can solder.(I've repaired several K77 tweeters that weren't working right by repairing this weak point in the design.)

You most likely have the K77M and the way the hookup terminal is joined to the voice coil by a rivet can develope an open or a very high resistance connections. You can gently move the terminal "slightly" and see if you get any sound by doing this and if you do then you can possibly repair it yourself.

If the above proves to be your problem then the way I have solved it is to take a very fine copper wire and soldered it inside the rivet where the voice coil is soldered and then leaving a little slack start to wrap the wire around the hookup terminal and solder there also. The reason for a little slack is so if you slightly move the hookup terminal it want break the wire. You can get a real small gauge wire to do this from a Scrap AC Cord if you have one.

Any other problems with the tweeter would probably be best if you check with member Bob Crites (BEC)

mike[]

[formica]

In case you want to do them yourself... i've still got the Step-by-Step

Diaphragm Replacement for the K-77 Tweeter web page online. If not... it'll still give you a better idea of what everyone here is refering to... []

[ka7niq]

Yes , Its Chris!

I only paid 1500 form then speakers, and this is all thats wrong!

They are beautiful walnut, and missing the rubber gasket too.

I was told that the AK 2 is NOT a good crossover, and to upgrade to an AA or an ALK ?

I also have a Behringer digital electronic tri amp crossover to use, but really dont want to do that, since i would be "stuck" to only digital sources ?

What is the truth about the K horns crossovers, the advantages, and disadvantages of each ?

Sure, i would have liked oil filles caps, etc, and Alnico magnets, but these fell from heaven to me, cheap and local!

I must make the best of what God has provided ?

Could someone please bring me up to speed on the Khorns, the changes, etc ?

I have come from the world of the Epic series, and, thanks to MANY conversations with Roy Delgado, I know his babies inside and out.

But, the K's have evaded me, until now.

What would some of you do, after you fixed the tweeters ?

What, besides Rope Caulk, which did NOT work on the Tractrix CF series, would one do ?

Are there better crossovers availiable, or should I just Poly cap this one ?

What would you guys do, if you were "stuck" with an ak 2 equipped speaker ?

[WMcD]

Those are a lot of questions, Grasshopper. I'll do my best to be even handed and give everyone their due.

If you have access to Roy D., you're way ahead of most of us.

Is that really the case with your digital crossovers? A Behringer is on my Santa list. I'm not against DSP at all.

What are the plus and minus about x-overs. There are big differences of opinion on that. Or, rather, there is not any very deep consistency.

I point out that PWK liked the A type modified to take out the inductor in the woofer. That left: A 13 uF and autotransformer in the mid. And a 2 uF cap in the tweeter. You can't get more simple.

The major purpose of later ones was to sharpen rolloffs and some tweeter protection with Zener diodes and a fuse like device. There may have been some minor peaking in freq response in some. Mostly, it was a matter of preventing overloads with monster amps. The later ones have a third order tweeter x-over.

Some people claim that the tweeter has a spitting sound or is harsh with the latter overall x-over. I dont' want to misquote. There are comments about removing a screw mounting an inductor, and removing the Zeners. They can come forward with their experience.

A well regarded non factory mod was the P-Trap which notches out a peak in the midrange at about 8 kHz.

The newest x-over is the AK-4 for which we don't have a schematic. The factory does not publish schematics used in models currently in production. I expect it was designed with LEAP and probably fills in some frequency response issues. They are complicated from what we've seen.

There are several types of mods widely used by people here. One is to maintain the original topology and use modern caps, inductors, and autotransformers. The other is Al. K's designs which also use modern components but with some changes to the designs.

I have never heard a side by side comparison of any of the above. It is pretty much a given that any mod gives a placibo effect. Whether a mod give something more, I can't say, not being there.

For right now, I'd say fix the tweeter, get the units set up, and listen for several months. There is a reason for this.

The history of the forum shows that the bigger issues are with getting a good seal against the wall and long wall versus short wall placement. This is a certainty. There are also good arguments about amps most likely to give favorable results. Tube amps are favored as are recent Tripath digital.

In addition to the above, there is the issue that you'll find a lot of new info in recordings. It can be good and bad. People complain that the K-Horns make nominally good recordings sound bad. On the other hand, there is al lot of good sound hidden in nominally bad recordings; e.g. historical 78 rpm jazz . . . dubbed to CD.

Overall, K-Horns are like a new set of glasses for ears; better resolution. You can see more. They don't themselves make recordings bad or good.

I'll point out that I've posted several dozen article here over the past years if you're interested. E.g. the Audio review of the K-Horn and reviews in a French magazine.

They are difficult to find after the change in the bbs software. Try searching for posts by me AND the term Article. They should pop up. Also search for "Free the Dope From Hope".

Best,

Gil

[WMcD]

BTW, Is that a Lava Lamp? A Lava Lamp! A Lava Lamp?

I was on the 156 LaSalle Street bus going to work today and a young fellow in the next seat had an I-Pod. The screeen showed he was listening to Iron Butterfly and In a Godda da Vida.

Smile,

Gil

[sunnysal]

welcome to the klipsch forum and congrats on your k-horns.

IMHO no k-horn crosssover is really that bad, while the AK-2 may be considered the worst you still will not have a bad sounding k-horn on your hands...I have ALKs in mine (I had AK-3s which many think were great) and, on the whole, I liked the result after the change to ALK, better low end and top end extension. You could start by upgrading the caps and coils in your existing crossover and see what you get.

re: the tweeter, be careful about running the speakers with a bad tweeter, keep the volume low at least until you get the tweeter fixed...BEC is the best choice for repair or parts for a DIY repair.

don´t forget to let us know how the k-horns sound compared to the vonsweikert screens, inquiring minds want to know!

warm regards, tony

[ka7niq]

I see you are a Ham, so you will excuse me for getting long winded, Hi Hi !

CQ, De Ka7niq, rig here is a Kenwood Ts 850s and the Amp is a Henry 2K Ultra.

Well, I still have the kenwood at least!

Regarding Roy Delgado, I accidentally got through to him.

I found out from Trey Cannon he designed my beloved CF 3's, and I wanted to talk with him.

So, I simply called, asked for Roy, and said it was Chris.

He was quite nice, and told me the story of the CF series speakers.

He suggested I get hold of an ORIGINAL CF 4, the one with the 6 inch ports.

It seemed the powers that be at Klipsch compromised Roys original design in the name of efficiency by raising the bass tuning for more efficiency and warmth.

I really loved my CF 4's, but the voicing was such that tone correction was often required , unless the recording was really good.

I shamlessy used them with a highly modified old Pioneer receiver that had tone memories you could remotely switch through until you got the sound you wanted.

Used this way, the CF 4 was one of my all time favorite speakers in 30 plus years of audio!

But, I let my "audiofool training" get the best of me!

After all, REAL audiophiles use tubes, analog, and eschew tone controls, right ?

So, feeling guilty about using tone controls, and not trusting my own ears, I stupidly sold them!

Big Mistake!

Roy told me he felt, and so far I agree, that a CF 4 would more then compete with ANY Klipsch product ever made, except possibly a Jubilee thing he spoke about.

But, enough on the CF 4's, they are gone, and I must concentrate on getting the best out of these K's now.

You said you did the review in Audio, is that correct ?

I thought I read a review in Audio on the K's, and in it, If I recall, they said that despite a slightly ragged midrange, the K's could still hold their own.

What will the seal do for me ?

Will anything ever get rid of the woody sound in the lower mids ?

I had Belle's, hated em too, sorry guys.

They had this same woody sound, only much worse then the K's do.

Is this a problem with the AK 2 crossover ?

I am getting great bass from my K's !

Quick, punchy, not real deep, but i have no shortage of it.

I plan on going to the Ak 3 crossover conversion, and contacted BEC to get new tweeters/diapraghns ?

Is there ever going to be a way to minimise this woody sound ?

[ka7niq]

Well, they are totally different animals.

The Von Schweikert Vortex Screens that I aslo own are much "audiophile" sounding.

They, of course, image much better then the horns, way more 3 dimensional.

But, remember, i have a blown tweeter in the Horns!

They have much deeper bass, and are more forgiving then the Horns.

Its a very different sound, and I like them both.

I favor the Horns though because they are out of the way in corners.

I have a 55 inch widescreen, and when the vortex Screens are next to it, it makes the room seem cluttered.

Also, the Horns are much :livelier" sounding, faster.

Again, its a totally different sound.

The Screens sound a lot like my friends Vandersteen 5A's, very pleasant.

They make everything sound good, whereas the Horns are much more differences in Recordings.

If its a bad recording, you really hear it on the Horns.

The Screens never "show their ***" so to speak like the k Horns can.

I own 5 amps, and the Screens never sound bad with any of them.

The Horns are super fussy.

Hey, guess what ?

I happen to own a Teac "all in one" CD tuner DVD and VCR player I bought for my bedroom .

I just found out it has a Tri Path digital amp in it !

I paid 99 dollars at Overstock.com for it, and only planned to have it in the bedroom.

Hows that for luck ?

I plan to hook it up once the tweeter is fixed.

[ka7niq]

Yes, its a psychedellic lava lamp, lol

[sfogg]

Gil,

"Is that really the case with your digital crossovers? A Behringer is on my Santa list. I'm not against DSP at all."

No, it isn't. The Behringer digital crossovers can accept analog input too. The high slope crossover measurements I posted a week or two back were from a Behringer DCX2496 with analog in/out. For highest resolution/lowest noise you need to be sure to drive their inputs/outputs to near 0dBfs to get the most out of the AD/DAs in them.

Typically that means you will need to do attenuation between the Behringers outputs and your amps. In the case of the Teac amps I'm going to use I removed the volume pots in them and put in a fixed 22dB of attenuation instead. I may end up tweaking that some as needed too.

Shawn

[Cornwalled]

I had the same problem with my LaScala, couldn't get around it, it eventually bothered me enough that I disconnected it and it sits on the side wall unused. Just too resonant, compared to the Cornwall. I was wondering if the K-horns were the same way and it sounds like they are. It's that K-400 horn I think. Wonder if a composite would be better? The other thing is the bass horn resonating- sounds kinda muddy to my ears, versus the tighter cleaner bass of the Cornwall.

I think I may sell it, as I can't really find a use for it.

-Jon

Quote:

Will anything ever get rid of the woody sound in the lower mids ?

I had Belle's, hated em too, sorry guys.

They had this same woody sound, only much worse then the K's do.

Is this a problem with the AK 2 crossover ?

[homemade]

The "woody" sound is likely the exagerated response in the 125hz range. I used to use an eq. to tame that range aprox. 4-6 db. I wasn't using an inductor on the woofer to limit the high end and added one (I have homemade Khorns) and that helped by lowering the effeciency of the woofer aprox. 1.5 db. Another great improvement is adding a subwoofer to reincorce the low end to balance it more with the 125hz range. This allowed me to forget the eq.

I believe that either adding a sub or an eq. are the answers to your "woody" sound. It's probably next to impossible to build a bass horn without some extra response in the 125 hz range. At least every response graph I've seen they all had the extra "punch" in that range. Probably due to wood resonances and design.

[ka7niq]

I notice it big time on my Khorns, and it was there on the Belles, even worse!

I definately couldnt live with it on the Belle's, although they were beautiful and the wife liked em looks wise.

I really want the KHorns to work, threy sit in the corners, and i like that.

The coloration isnt as bad as the Belle's, and maybe some mods will take care of it ?

You can really hear it in speech!

I am used to very high quality speakers w/o coloration.

801's, Harbeths, Quads Maggies, Von Schweikerts, etc.

I am very suprised that i havent found very many other posts addressing this problem ?

Maybe I just need a rubber gasket ?

[sunnysal]

good seal in corners helps a bit with upper bass response. putty the mid horn. fix your tweeter before making any judgements and plan to upgrade the crossover. with those changes you should be able to optimize the sound from the k-horns.

HOWEVER IMHO k-horns are always glong to sound colored, you either will like or not like the particular sound of the k-horns. flat, non-colored speakers (like some of those you mentioned) have never thrilled me as much as my k-horns. hornies buy speakers for the music they produce not the normal audiophile values demonstrated in B&W, Revel, etc.

I hope you end up enjoying the music from the klipschorns. warm regards,

[formica]

I am used to very high quality speakers w/o coloration. 801's, Harbeths, Quads Maggies, Von Schweikerts, etc.

Odd that you would mention uncoloured sound in the same sentence as electrostatics as well as the 801s.

Electrostatics are interesting speakers, and do very well with certain types of music when properly setup... but they are quite distinctive in sound and highly room dependant. Don't get me wrong, I actually like electrostatics [], but my experiences with them have lead me to feel they are everything but neutral.

The 801 are again interesting, but probably the least neutral in B&W line up. Am I the only one to have noticed this? Maybe Arthurs with his B&W 800 series setup could chime in...

I think in this category of speakers (heritage Klipsch included), people want their units to have some character... and then it comes down to personal taste.

Rob