pauln Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 A long time ago, Bang & Olufsen (the inventors of the stereo catridge in the 50's) decided to integrate their stylus to cartridge to tone arm to turntable. By engineering all of these to work together they optimised all the parameters and eliminated all the adjustments except tracking force. At least this was their goal - to get it right from the start by limiting all the choices down to nil. I have an old B&O table and I think this approach works well for mid-level performance. It makes for a stable system that has been in my service for 30 years without a glitch. Only recently (with the aquisition of Wright SETs and new AL-4 LaScalas) have I been considering upgrading to a more expensive and high-level performance table. For those wanting to go back to vinyl, the old B&Os are pretty foolproof and consitent in sound and performance. There definitly was a period of turntable design when you pretty much had to have passed your engineering classes and developed a good sense of physical intuition to set up these things properly. This was because of all the combinations of different manufacturer's choices among cartridge and arm/table available - everything had to be dialed in carefully and lots of adjustments had to be made and maintained. B&O's philosophy was to make all the parts themselves, said parts all designed with respect to each others' attributes so they would all integrate together and operate superiorly as a whole. Now days, this is a painless way to jump into enjoying record playing without taking a night class on TT setup. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 1, 2005 Author Share Posted October 1, 2005 Jim, I have a little SE Magnavox amp, too! It's just like the one Mike Stehr goosed-up. Mike is a cool guy and an incredible artist, too. Check this out: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 1, 2005 Author Share Posted October 1, 2005 Man, this is as good as Zap Comix! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 That's excellent work of Mike's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 LOL...watch out Alfred E. Neuman, here comes Mike Stehr![] Yeah, my bro's Maggie was similar...damn, I wish he had kept it. At least it sold for more than he had paid for it. We all got our money's worth outta that tiny amp. Bet yours would also sound fan-friggin'-tastic with your Xtreme! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 Aside from my obvious need for TT/Cart tweaking, I am thinking you've nailed the overall problem, Jim (especially since your experience was with McIntosh amplification). "Lively" is a good term, and it's affecting CD playback as well. I assumed a SS amp would make the experience MORE lively. Getting the Dynacos rebuilt is moving higher up on my list. Bill Tillman took a lot of time to do an excellent listening review his (NOSValves rebuilt) Mk-IVs, and I thank him for that! I've got a Fisher SA-16 amp here (EL-84, tube rectification), all original, that I will try out. Even though it hasn't been rebuilt, I'm guessing it will tell me something. James, thanks for the offer, but I have one of those doo-hickeys! You're welcome to come by and scratch heads with me anytime! Dee, Joshua came to me last night. Not in a dream, in the mail! Thank you, my friend! Lovely note, too! Fini, you're welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 And then there's... http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 If this works, a pdf file should show up with a printable alignment protracter. And no a test record is not absolutely necessary, unless you want to test your patience. Use your favorite recording with a large dynamic range ,good bass and treble. I like Santana's "Abraxas" for this. I can listen to a cut again and again and not get tired of it and I am so familiar with it, I know when it is "just right". The commercial test records contain test tones, phase checkers and tracking ability cuts that should already be accounted for or are beyond control without new components. The musical selection is someone else's idea of what sounds good not your own. If you feel like watching your stylus skip across the record surface while you destroy your ears, get a torture test record otherwise enjoy one of your own. Rick AG_Readme.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 Rick it says on the pdf that the protractor is NOT to scale. However, you can go to Colin's website and get one that is to scale for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauln Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 When you play a record the groove is pressed apart - it takes about a day for it to come back. If you play it over and over your stylus is getting deeper and deeper into the groove. It may behave a little differently, sound a little different, and may eventually harm the record with continuous repeated play. I would not recommend doing this generally, or for set up adjusting specifically. The effect of adjustments may be confounded with the changes caused by repeated plays. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 Boy Mike really put some effort and some artistry into that! He must have way to much time on his hands[] Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted October 1, 2005 Share Posted October 1, 2005 When you play a record the groove is pressed apart - it takes about a day for it to come back. If you play it over and over your stylus is getting deeper and deeper into the groove. It may behave a little differently, sound a little different, and may eventually harm the record with continuous repeated play. I would not recommend doing this generally, or for set up adjusting specifically. The effect of adjustments may be confounded with the changes caused by repeated plays. Paul Right you are Pauln. Like a hunting rifle, the final sighting in shot, for verification, must be done with a stone cold barrel as it will normally be used. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 1, 2005 Author Share Posted October 1, 2005 Boy Mike really put some effort and some artistry into that! He must have way to much time on his hands[] Craig No, I think he just takes pride in his work. He's nutty good. I'm gonna frame the original. Seriously! This forum software is BS for Mac users... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 Fini: I have felt as you. I had been searching for years, trying to find what it was that I felt we were missing in the system. Once you have the tracking issues resolved with your TT setup (I have to relearn all of that myself!), you might have some fun experimenting with a derived center channel. In my experience, it can be an improvement even when speakers are closer together, which may or may not be what you have in your situation. It wasn't so much that a pot hole in the image was suddenly filled and smoothed over, but rather that the music, as whole, sounded more complete, full, and incredibly good -- providing that the center speaker/amp combo wasn't turned up so much that it called attention to itself. I agree with what Dee said about making sure things are working ok otherwise, meaning with the CDP as the source. I think what Craig and some others have said about upgrading those great Dynaco amps could also be in order and bring a welcome change. Try that center speaker if you can -- it's lots of fun! Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 I think the main reason why I really haven't reached complete musical nirvana yet with all the gear I've had these past few years is not because of the components themselves, but because of this lousy tiny room! It's a bedroom that's 12' x 13.5' x 8' with a large window on one side of the long wall, and a 2-door closet on the opposite end. No matter if I moved my system to either the short wall or long wall, the sonics in this room never improved. Even with the carpet removed after Hurricane Jeanne flooded this room, the sound has never improved in here. And it was most notable when I had the Cornwalls installed within the confines of this spare bedroom...I know full well how they're supposed to sound in a large room; they fill the space evenly and completely with lots of room to breath (it's spectacular)! They're restricted and closed in sonically in this room, no matter what type of amplification I used. Right now the Loth-X Amaze bookshelf monitors sound the best my system's ever has in this little room, but they lack deep bass due to their 55Hz cutoff, so a subwoofer is in order. But what I really want is for my system to be completely relocated to the large formal living room (where the Cornwalls were originally located when my folks lived here at the house). Once my dad's residence pipe organ is sold to a new home or church, there will be gobs of available space left in the living room that I will be able to move my system in there, and my dad's ol' Cornwalls will again be sounding as glorious as they once did many years ago when his system was in the living room, long before two organ consoles and an upright piano filled up space! So for me to reach musical nirvana, it's not to change components (again), but to change music rooms...I miss not playin' my Cornwalls![] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 Fini, There is another thread by LeoK talking about the Crown D45. Anyway, he is using a passive attenuator (creek obh-12) instead of an active preamp. In his last post or two he is explaining why (I think) there are sometimes a tube pre might not work with a particular SS poweramp. The technical stuff was over my head, but it caused me to wonder if he may be discribing a synergistic issue you've bumped into with this combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted October 2, 2005 Author Share Posted October 2, 2005 Thanks, Dee. I'll see if I can muddle my way through the tech stuff. What is that up to, like, 20 pages?? ;^) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted October 2, 2005 Share Posted October 2, 2005 Yeh, it is a long thread. Good news: Leo's post that lined this issue out so well is on the last page. At least it was the last page earlier on today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 I think I must have missed something somewhere. As I understand it you have the same problem with the CD player and the TT - veiled sound and both of these issues came apparent when you installed the Blueberry. First things first - can you eliminate the blueberry from the circuit and see if you still have the veiled sound. This may be nothing to do with the arm/cartridge setup at all. If the veiled sound goes when you remove the Blueberry either the unit has a fault or there is a synergy problem with the amp. If the veiled sound continues then you might want to start playing with the VTA et al. Just as a side note I tend to find that cartridges are rarely at their best parallel to the record surface - I tend to run mine a little hot (angled down towards the vinyl surface about 5 degrees or so) but I guess it is a matter of personal preferance. Still - if the CD has the same problem I can't see how the TT setup can be the issue - not that that means the setup of the TT is correct - merely that it is not the immedate problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted October 3, 2005 Share Posted October 3, 2005 Fini: Are you bypassing the preamp section of the Mac? What you might try is using the Blueberry the same way you would any line-level source. If you are bypassing the preamp section (if that's even possible with the component you have), it might be better to use one of the regular source inputs on the McIntosh, and let it's own preamp section deliver the signal to the output stage. Chances of impedance matching problems would maybe become less of an issue, and the symptom you are describing could have something to do with that. I don't know for sure, but maybe... (I'm just guessing on how you have this hooked up, so could be completely off base here...) Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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