Deang Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 Nevermind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 And that's a BIG nevermind, in this instance. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 7, 2005 Share Posted October 7, 2005 well .. sorry Crown doesn't list the frequency at which the maximum 10 degree phase shift occurs just 20 to 20khz max 10 deg @ 1 watt i'll go back to listening to P.F the wall. now,.............. why waste time arguing equipment really i could give a rats a ss about specs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 8, 2005 Share Posted October 8, 2005 well ...really i could give a rats a ss about specs If only that were the case. You've been quoting them for a quarter of this thread in defense of the amp's sonics. I have to say that I care about most specs even less than you do, especially the usual specs quoted in ad literature. After the spec wars of the 70s, where the SS amps ramped up the "my THD spec is lower than yours" barrage, people began to get wise and actually start listening to the gear. I couldnt count the number of amplifiers with stellar specs that sounded like dreck, especially in the 70s/80s. We probably dont have the same perception as to what constitutes "high resolution" either. The Crown D-75 of 91 yore, if I can summon my audio memory, which is only strong for this piece because I forced the sale of three of them at our radio station, was more of the type of solid state that had an accented TREBLE with more etched outlines, this masquerading as an extended top end, while real resolution, or the quality of an open, natural extension without any exaggeration or etching, was MIA. Perhaps this Crown does better with horns, but from my experience with horns, amps like this tend to disappoint even more than normal. All this is just my opinion and preference, obviously. How do I explain the almost 100% love for this amplifier within the Klipsch forums? Maybe there is a synergy. As for Leo's experience, and he is someone that I know from personal discussions s pretty sensitive to these same problems, I can only think he might have found the D-45 to be a great match. I've seen stranger things. But in talking to Jeff, he seems to feel the same way I did about the D-75 in 05 as I did in 90-91. Solid state, when not done well, tends to lose some ground in the midrange and open top end with some glare & etching; meanwhile, quality tube amps seem to bring the better mids and open/natural top end to the table when matched in the right system. To be honest, I would take an up to snuff EICO, Fisher, Scott, or Pilot for recreation of music and not sounds... You're right though....we're beating a dead horse here, even with DeanG's weighty "Neverminds" in play. I mainly am adding to this endless thread to apologize to my good friend Jeffus, who is only trying to pass the ole Crown to someone that might appreciate what it has to offer, which is surely buttoned up, turn it on and leave it, sound.... And probably results that many would love like a babe in swaddling clothes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Landau Posted October 8, 2005 Share Posted October 8, 2005 combien sa coute? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivendell61 Posted October 8, 2005 Share Posted October 8, 2005 Revised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfyr Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 "...from my experience with horns, amps like this tend to disappoint even more than normal. All this is just my opinion and preference, obviously. How do I explain the almost 100% love for this amplifier within the Klipsch forums?" Obviously you can't... I just love the arguments whereby one says the judgement is subjective and then proceeds to argue that others' subjective opinions are wrong! [][] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 You've been quoting them for a quarter of this thread in defense of the amp's sonics. We probably dont have the same perception as to what constitutes "high resolution" either l. All this is just my opinion and preference, obviously. How do I explain the almost 100% love for this amplifier within the Klipsch forums? Maybe there is a synergy. . it's not in Defense of the Crown's spec's ........ it's an interest to find "what" specifically might be the cause of what You don't like Perception is hard to quantify System Synergy is ...Everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaffstone Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Painful Reality does not have any contact info info in their profile. I'd take the crown at the right price as I need a backup unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Painful Reality does not have any contact info info in their profile. I'd take the crown at the right price as I need a backup unit.Painful Reality has a WEB SITE link at the bottom of every post. You could even SEE Painful Reality via the links within. Contacts are there as well, as painful a reality as it is, and sometimes it can be painful. Think he's asking $200. It's a deal for an amp with specs like that.Duke, I think we're talking more than system synergy with this piece but get your drift; you're right though, SYSTEM SYNERGY and setup is one of the most under-valued aspects. On another note, I might like some of your amps for pro use, ie the Phase Linear 400 (Ive used Phase linear at times in bands I've was involved in), but when inserting this beast into a 2 channel home system, I find it rather fatigue inducing, especially via 100dB speakers. I have different taste in 200w amplifiers and what they should bring to the table. Indeed, this probably holds true for a 10w-50w amp as well. Which brings up one of the problems in comparing, contrasting, and assessing worth to audio gear. If anyone's interested in ole Jeff's Crown D-75, throw him a mail via his website. kh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Phase 400 ..... run at no more than 1/3 power has a Great sweet spot @8 ohms nominal pushed harder, it can get "metallic" ...... it's just a cool vintage amp not necessarily "audiofile" i have to say, i mostly listen to the crownK-2....which is basically the Studio Reference amp with a Switching amplifier + SMPS as it has Great Synergy with the JBL 4430's.... they don't want to be bi-amped, which i usually do with 6l6's on the mid/ highs they depend on thier internal x-over for CD compensation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 I just love the arguments whereby one says the judgement is subjective and then proceeds to argue that others' subjective opinions are wrong![][]Good lord. This is an interesting statement. We are ALL talking about opinions and perception but are also making judgements. I think we have different levels of experience, different tastes, and different goals for audio when assessing worth. It's all subjective when we are talking TASTE. On the other hand, when talking about how well an amplifier can handle certain areas and the attributes of an amplifier (or any component), then countless variables weigh in, some of which involve a person's experience and exposure. It's a tough situation when you add in the myriad of variables. Still, we can pass judgement on the piece, but in reading someone's judgement, it's up to the reader to be able to ascertain the validity or worth of the statements and where/how taste, bias, and experience weigh in. Duke, good points on your use. Also, you have a lot more experience with various horns in the home than I do. I had a lot of horns around but experience with horns in home audio is severely limited (in the old days, possibly on purpose, but now I would like to try other samples that seem intriguing and dont need 400w). In my opinion, it's a lot harder to make a high wattage amplifier sound they way I like with a wide variety of material. One of the things that got me into horns again, and I'm VERY glad it did, was trying to find speakers for lower and lower powered amplifiers. I sold my last 200w monoblocks about five years ago or so, this when I couldnt continue to ignore that a 14w lowly $100 tube integrated seemed to actually make more music than $2000 worth of quality SS monoblock, this one of the amplifiers I had held as a price point reference... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Well, it's been my limited experience in the past with pro audio gear I have either owned and/or used (Carver Professional, PreSonus, dbx, Yamaha, Tascam, Behringer, Sony, Alesis, etc.) that no matter how great a particular item is, especially in pro audio applications for which they're primarily designed, they're IMO pretty much better off left for pro audio use and not for use in home audio. That's not to say that all pro audio gear cannot be used satisfactorily in home audio applications, but I think most pro audio gear is best left in the studios for which they're intended...that's all! Welcome back, kh.[Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Well in my experience most tubes and most turntables sound like crap as does most of the music available for that medium...doesn't mean there might be a select few products in that category that might actually sound good. The pro audio industry has two markets: the starving musician and the big rich studios and venues. Since there are more starving musicians, there is more cheap compromised pro audio gear available. I'll stop here because I think the point is already clear... I think it would be interesting for everyone to list every piece of equipment they've heard describing every variable in the environment. Compared to my Sony piece of crap HTIB my new Bose speakers might actually be the best sound in the world! Good for me, seems I need to listen to a real setup if I make that claim. This is one of the reasons that I try so hard to run around and demo every system and piece of gear that comes my way. At the age of 21 I have a huge head start, but there's still so much more out there (including this D-75 which either I don't remember hearing or haven't heard yet). I read posts on occasion that make claims where my only response is, "you obviously haven't heard enough if you're making that claim" - we of course can't say this on a forum because it's arrogant and condescending, not to mention it contradicts what the other person is experiencing (that Bose system really is the best in the world...to that person) I find it interesting that people who have heard most of the same gear actually have very similar perceptions and descriptions of the same devices. This of course makes sense when you think about it, but it also goes to show that our "different tastes" are actually not that different afterall - if you have a pallette for a certain type of sound, then I would claim you listen with bias and have your own agenda; in which case negative opinions towards other gear are completely meaningless - positive opinions might have some merit, but only before certain devices become the best value or best sounding in the world. There is no way to quantify "goodness" of a device, so all we're left with is making comparisons. It would be interesting to try and create a flow chart that takes everyone's opinions about certain devices and shows the average relative claims. And before I offend, I am not directing this post towards anyone - if anything, it's directed at me because I need to get off my butt and go find a job at an audio retailer so I can demo lots more stuff [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1stcav Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 I'm not sure if it's a very common trend, but I wonder if I could claim that people who don't like "pro gear" are the ones that prefer their turntables and tubes...which to an engineer sounds like someone who prefers pleasant distortion over accuracy...I for one never said I didn't like pro audio gear in home systems, and I never dissed any comparisons based on topology or category. And look at how much pro audio components for the recording engineer use vacuum tubes today (Manley Labs comes to mind, and is much better known for all their pro audio tube components than for their consumer amps and preamps). Guess there are loads of recording engineers who prefer pleasant distortion over accuracy, eh?[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 Well there is nothing inherantly wrong with tube amps and I've even heard a few "no distortion" ones...still wouldn't use them in the studio for monitoring playback though (mostly because the sound does change over time). But give me a tube amp for guitar anyday - man I love that distortion [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 I'm not sure if it's a very common trend, but I wonder if I could claim that people who don't like "pro gear" are the ones that prefer their turntables and tubes...which to an engineer sounds like someone who prefers pleasant distortion over accuracy [] (nothing wrong with that I suppose).I ran my own studio for some time in the 80s and played in bands since early teens. Also was the engineer/music director at a radio station. And I couldnt disagree more with 90% of your post, including this sentence above, not to mention the assessment of pro vs home audio and the goals around each. Distortion over accuracy? I find it amazing we are still seeing phrases like this anymore. One man's accuracy is another man's bombast. Accuracy is one of the most misused words in audio and a mobias strip.Some of the worst recordings known to man were BECAUSE of the sorry gear used and the EQ/compression brought into the equation. Multitracking out the yin yang..... etc Some of the best recordings out there are moving away from this trend that hit a peak in the 80s, which was much to the detriment of the music behind the mic. This is why live recordings, carefully setup up, seem to have more of a chance sonically. Insert thy generic studio engineer and you get mediocre results too many times to count, sadly enough. As for this turntable and tubes thing, wondering why a lot of the gear is moving to tubes in the pre stages with tube mics etc... Even mags like TAPE OP are seeing the light. On the other hand, at least digital is getting a lot better than it was just five years ago, both in the studio and out. Still, this is a huge can or worms with many waypoints to plot. I dig LO-FI recordings as well. Sadly Pt II, some of the BEST recordings are or some of the most vacuous music... Not to mention one person's "Vacuous" is another person's "depth". kh ps - "But give me a tube amp for guitar anyday - man I love that distortion" Man, are you talking apples and oranges... On a guitar tube amp note, I'm involved with a small cottage company that is doing some EXCELLENt work and getting raves. Check out Swart Amplifiers... the new Swart Atomic Tone and the little Space Tone are amazing amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 There is obviously some great pro equipment out there. Sometimes however even a great piece of pro equipment can be made to sound bad when used incorrectly as often happens in home environments. A perfect example of this is when huge studio monitors are brought home and the owner complains of wierd bass response and boring, flat sound. Also, I see people complain when 250 watt (and more) welding machines are brought home and plugged into 104db sensitive speakers and the owners seem to find them brittle or hissy...pro equipment is designed for a specific use, out of their element they can sometimes dissapoint, what is surprising about that? regards, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 I dont know, Tony. I dont think I have EVER heard someone describe huge studio monitors (dont seem to be as many huge ones around either) as boring flat sound.... Speaker wise, most of the pro gear seems to be anything but boring if looking for a fault. Actually, in my experience, a lot of the basic so-called pro speakers sold seem to be more tipped up and hotter than real life. This seems to hold more for the mid range stuff you see at the average station/town studio. I've been more disappointed with PRO audio than anything else and when I had a small studio, tried to find other alternatives. And much of the pro gear made for abuse that we carted around for sound amplification sounded pretty aggressive when trying to move to an in home enviro. I was in a band in the early 80s that had a band house where we attempted to combine all our gear into a studio/practice room/ and music system. Sonically, it was a far cry to what I would prefer now 90% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted October 9, 2005 Share Posted October 9, 2005 it's probably a bad assumption all together to assume everyone collected here on a forum is some cohesive lot with homogenious goals for their audio expenditures. Or, that the group of people "who purchase audio gear" are in anyway standardized about goals for the purchase.Good point. Indeed, I Think this is a point that has been stressed here, at least by me, in this thread. Also, it's interesting to see people's tastes and perceptions and point of view change over the years, just in this very forum. An opinion and "truth" held in 01 might be considered questionable in 05, this by the very same person. It's what makes that first point above seem even more appropos. On the other hand, judgements and the comparisons of them can be interesting...this place wouldnt be as fun without it. On another point, I agree with the last paragraph of the post as well, but I would suggest that some might have a change in heart and learn to appreciate gear they shunned at an early time. See the point of "change" over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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