The Academy Center and other HT concerns

[richard107]

Hi. I'm brand new to this site and don't spend too much time in on-line forums either, so please pardon me if I'm in any way awkward when it comes to procedural issues and matters of chat etiquette.

I should also say that I have a some basic understanding of the issues pertaining to HT and audio but would not really call myself an audiophile.

That said, it has been years since I have upgraded my stereo system, and I'm currently thinking about transitioning over to a HT set up.

Right now, I have a pretty simple system that includes two Forte Is running off a Nakamichi SR-3A receiver, a B&O Beogram RX turntable, a Nakamichi BX-300 cassette deck, and a Nak MB-2s CD player. Probably not quite audiophile I'm guessing, but also not exactly Circuit City pieces either . . . and that's kind of what I'm hoping to preserve, or maybe even improve upon, with my HT setup.

My thoughts were to migrate towards the Denon 3806 AVR or possibly a comparable Rotel piece along with whatever proves to be a good DVD player utilizing the dominant HD technology when that finally shakes out.

For picture, I'm leaning towards Pioneer's new 930.

And for the speakers I wanted to keep my Fortes if possible and expand to a 5.1 format. I should say that I have neither the space nor the desire to outfit with some massive constellation of speakers. I'd like to do something that's solid and sounds really nice, but it doesn't have to be the ultimate.

After having read a lot of the threads on this site, it seems to me like what I might want is an Academy center with maybe with a couple of KGs in the rear. And my local dealer seems very high on one of Velodyne's SPL 800-R.

But before striking out in this direction, I have some questions.

1) How good a fit IS the Academy for my Forte Is? I know it is MADE for the IIs, but the sense I get is that it is almost as a good a fit for the Is.

Still, I've seen some confusing info in the forums here. For instance, if I'm reading correctly, some people seem to suggest Academy has a Tractix horn that is the SAME as the mid frequency horn on the IIs but DIFFERS from the Exponential mid frequency horn on the Is.

But when I looked up the specs on the Klipsch website, it says that the Academy, the Is, and the IIs ALL have the Exponential horn and that it is a a HIGH not a MID frequency component. The place where the Academy is listed as being DIFFERENT is the tweeter, where it has a K-76-KV (as compared to the K-75-K found on BOTH the Is and IIs) and the woofer, where it has a K-1011-K (as opposed to a KD-13 on the Is and a KD-15 on the IIs).

Further confusing me is the fact that the spec sheets for the Is and IIs list a tweeter, high frequency horn, midrange, mid frequency horn, and woofer--5 components--on the front side. Perhaps this reveals my lack of knowledge, but I only see three on my Is. Or is it that the tweeter and midrange are the components actually AT THE BACK OF or BEHIND the horns?

So again, taking all this into account, how good a fit for my Forte Is is the Academy? What is likely to sound different as compared to a mating with the IIs?

2) I also see that many people find it PREFERABLE to use the exact same speaker for the center as for Mains. In my case that would involve using another Forte. Again, I am confused. I thought I good center was engineered specifically to handle dialog and, as such, would be somewhat different from the mains.

3) This leads to my next question. I bought my Fortes when I was young and just liked to listen to a lot of loud, driving music, and they were great for that. As I have matured, they've started to sound a little . . . I'm not quite sure what the right word is . . . maybe muddy, less precise. They also tend to sound more-so at lower volumes. They are currently also hooked up to my television and rather than enhance the experience sometimes make it MORE difficult to hear dialog during movie watching and the like.

Now my hearing is definitely not what it used to be, and some sales people have suggested to me that the Fortes really need a cleaner power source than my Nak and that they will sound much better at lower volumes with that in place, but my experience has me questioning whether they are really a good HT main and whether or not I might not be better served going with some line that is a little less, shall we say, distinctive. As such, I'm curious to hear everybody's thoughts; I know that the Fortes have the energy one wants for a home theater, but when properly powered along with the Academy do they have the crispness and clarity? Is my Nak really insufficient to bring this out?

4) Keeping all this in mind, does anyone know how often the Academy's tend to circulate? I know they're hard to come by, but is it the kind of thing where they show up once every few months, or more like every few years? Also, I've seen them here and again in black, but does anyone know how rare the walnuts are? Does it end up looking bad if you have to mix and match?

5) As mentioned, I'm leaning towards a 5.1 format as it sounds like a solid layout without having the home theater overwhelm the room. What are the considerations when picking a format however? Is there anything substandard about this format or am I missing out in any profound way by going 5.1?

6) Assuming that the 5.1 is a reasonable set up, what speakers do you like for the rears? I should also mention that I don't have a permanent home for my HT right now as I may be moving some time in the distant future and also that I probably won't be using the surround for music listening, just HT. Right now, it would probably be best if there were a solution that could go in a bookshelves immediately behind the seating area (no real space behind, they'd be directly overhead). Is this reasonable? Do the speakers have to be angled or mounted in any special way? Also is there one type of speaker that's most versatile if I were to find myself having to rely upon some other kind of configuration in the future? i know there are a lot of different formats for rears (dipole, omnipole, etc.), but I'm assuming people are going to steer me towards some pretty traditional formats to go along with the Fortes.

7) Lastly, can someone give me a little better sense for just how "audiophilic" members on this site tend to be. I ask first because I know there are all sorts of different levels of involvement with this hobby, and as mentioned, I'm trying to take my system up a notch, so I want to make sure I'm getting advice from people with a similar target. I know that simply looking at the systems being used should theoretically give me sense for where I am in the audiophile universe, but frankly, I don't really know the gear well enough. Also, and I mean no offense by this, but I've heard that Klipsch has, itself, moved more towards the mass market in recent years and, thus, isn't quite as strong a performer as in the past. Is there any truth to this? Again, I'm not trying to criticize or comment on anyone's taste or expertise, just trying to figure out where I am in the audiophile world.

I know this is a lot. Sorry, but I get the sense most everyone here loves gabbing about this, so have at me.

Thanks in advance for all your help.

Rich

[t-man]

Wow. What a great 1st post. Managed to encapsulate 8 years worth of Q&A in one post. It sounds like you've done the searching and have most of your answers. I really don't have your gear so I can't attest to real world experience. I do know that you will likely be pleased keeping your Fortes for HT. The center may haunt you for years if you constantly seek the ultimate. 5.1 is a good way to go. Not much out there recorded otherwise. Bookshelves in the rear are fine for 5.1 and I like monopoles aimed at you in the rear corners. Room geography often dictates the compromises one must make. Some KG bookshelves would seem to work fine considering the alternatives. I use KG1s with my KG 5.5 and love them for HT, but not great for 5.1 audio CDs. Ideally need 5 identical speakers. I have a pair of 2.2s in black if you need some to try.

Although you will not need a sub for your audio, one may help your HT experience. Be sure to get a good one. That's another forum topic.

Good luck!

[richard107]

Thanks for your kind words and great advice. (You're a fast reader; I put this up just a few minutes ago.)

If I've captured a lot, it simply reflects all the great info I've got reading posts on this site.

I should probably have mentioned that I'm not too interested in surround sound for pure audio, so that should simplify things a bit.

Just to clarify, are the KGs monopoles, and when you say some KGs might work do you mean SOME as in "a pair of" or SOME as in "certain members of the KG family."

Also, what might you want to sell the 2.2s for, what kind of condition are they in, and how hard have they been used?

I'm kind of far off from pulling the trigger on this whole thing but might be interested.

[DrWho]

Wow, talk about a well thought out question for a change [] I'll guess I'll just provide answers as you have numbered them...

1).

The Academy will be a more than acceptable match to your forte's.

Another option that would be a step down (but still a step up for you)

would be the KLF-C7.

As far as the driver components...There is the horn (square thing you

see from the outside) and then in the back there is the round driver.

The horn acts as an acoustical impedance coupler between the driver and

the room, which results in a more focused dispersion pattern and higher

sensitivity while also reduing harmonic and frequency modulation

distortion.

In all honesty, I don't think you will notice much timbre difference

between the academy and the forte I, forte II, Chorus I, Chorus II,

Cornwall I and Corwall II. These are all very similar sounding speakers

because they are by nature very similar designs. In other words, you

won't regret the purchase.

2).

This is due to the need for perfect timbre matching. When a sound pans

across the front from the L to the C to the R, it is very distracting

when the tonality of the sound changes when it hits the center. Also,

the majority of the speech in movies comes out of the center channel

(in fact, about 75% of the sound in movies comes from the center) so

the overall integrity of your system is pretty much rooted in the

center. And again it sounds wierd when the speech pans around to the

different speakers because the different speaker timbres will change

how that person sounds. Once you've heard a perfectly timbre matched

system there's no going back.

3).

How old are your Forte's? I bet they're due for a crossover tuneup. The

caps in your crossovers tend to go bad over time...the end result is

your crossover points and slopes move around and you end up with

drivers playing out of their range and overlapping with each other.

There are a few guys on the forum that will rebuild your crossovers for

a small fee if you're interested.

Amplification is also key to the overall sound of a speaker. I know the

amplication on your denon is definetly of high enough quality so

perhaps you should wait and see if that doesn't bring the sound back to

life. In fact, I might as well mention this now...only change one thing

at a time until you're satisfied with the change in your system.

Otherwise you'll never really know which difference made the biggest

improvement and you won't be able to appreciate your system as much.

4).

It seems to me that there are always at least one or two pairs for sale

on the forum. You might want to post a new thread with the subject

"want to buy walnut academy" If you don't get a response within 2-3

weeks I would be surprised. Also, be sure to keep an eye out at

www.audiogon.com and of course ebay. You migth also check out

www.craiglist.org (sometimes really good deals show up there too)

5).

5.1 will be fine to start with. There were some studies done actually a

long time ago that show that you cannot fully reproduce a perfect

surround sound effect without a 7.1 system. It has to do with the fact

that sounds located directly behind you in the mix will sound as if

they are coming from the front of the room because that is where the

center of your attention is. Is this a big deal? I've never had

problems with 5.1 and since you're after a not over the top system I

think you will be more than happy with 5.1

6).

You should be fine going with just about any of the KG speakers in the

rears. Ideally you will want to mount them up above the listening

position (at least 1 foot) and then angled and pointed down towards the

main listening position. If you draw an arc starting from the cetner

channel and trace around the side, you should have a 120 degree angle

to the rear surrounds in a 5.1 configuration.

7).

The people on this site are for the most part way overboard when it

comes to audio. Klipsch has never been very popular with the audiophile

crowd for all sorts of reasons, but keep in mind the audiophile crowd

things placing magic rocks on top of their speakers will make a

difference. If you don't wanna deal with all that crap and just want

good sound then Klipsch is the way to go. I think you will find that

the klipsch following is a group with far more musically inclined

people versus that of the other esoteric expensive brands of speakers.

It's all about the music/movie here...the equipment is just a means to

an end.

Btw, welcome to the forum! Feel free to stick around and see just how

crazy we all really are...just be careful or you might catch the bug

too []

[DrWho]

I should probably have mentioned that I'm not

too interested in surround sound for pure audio, so that should

simplify things a bit

Yikes, then this changes my reply slightly...

You won't be satisfied with anything short of Forte's all around

(though you could get away by mixing it up with Forte II's and Chorus I

and II's).

You do mean pure music right? (when you say "pure audio")

The system requirements for a surround sound music system are far different than that for home theater.

[richard107]

Thanks for the great response, kind words, and the welcome; I think I'm already probably about as crazy as anyone here will prove to be, so I'm probably in good company. And thanks for the welcome.

In response to your previous post clarifying on the pure audio issue let me restate, when listening to just music alone, I am NOT really interested in the surround sound experience. Is that what you understood me to mean, because I would think that I only would need to go Fortes all the way around if I was going to listen to music in surround formats?

Although I've heard plenty of talk about crossovers, can you tell me what they are specifically and what goes bad in them? Are they something I can safely remove myself and send out to be serviced? How do I find the people that do this, and would I be better served to have it done through a local shop or Klipsch itself?

Lastly, regarding the rears, can you help me out a little more on the geometry? Currently, I have a roughly square listening area open on one side and with wall-to-wall glass doors on the other side with some intrusive ducting above them at ceiling height. The seating area is against some bookcases which are, themselves, against the back wall and the center/t.v. would be directly opposite it on the other wall. I assume then, the perimeter of the circle would be approximately tangent to each of the walls, or in the case of the open end, where the wall would be. So at about 120 degrees to the center channel, the rears would more nearly be at the sides of the listening area. As such, should I turn them at right angles to the center channel so that they are "aimed" at the seating area or can I just keep them pointing towards the front? Does it matter that the seating areas is against the rear plane of the listening area and not in the center as I don't think I can move this? Also, is it acceptable to follow the 120-degree ray out, past the perimeter of the imaginary circle, until I reach a wall or some structure for mounting? Lastly, if they are up high--say at ceiling height, do they have to be aimed downward? The fact of the matter is things are pretty tight in the space, and what I'd like to do is put them at ceiling height, about 165 degees from the axis of the center channel, and immediately above the seating area. I have a feeling you're goiing to tell me this is pretty bad, but . . .

[DrWho]

Ok, I thought you were saying you wanted surround sound for music only

(dvd-audio and sacd provide this option). For HT you will be fine with

the academy and KG's in the rear. Identical speakers all around is of

course ideal, but it's not that huge of a sacrifice to go with you're

thinking of.

The crossovers are really easy to get to and disconnect. You just have

to unscrew the rear input terminal and I believe it is attached to the

back. Simply unscrew the leads going to the speakers and it's out. (If

it's not connected to the rear of the input terminal, then it's mounted

on a board inside the speaker somewhere just unscrew the whole board

and disconnect the all the wires leading to the speakers). If the

crossover isn't labelled be sure to write a note so that you remember

where everything goes [] If one of the crossover guys doesn't chime

in to this thread then I'll go hunt them down for you. I'm sure someone

that actually owns a pair of forte's might be more helpful.

You'll be fine with where you're thinking of putting the surrounds. The

120 degree angle is just the standard they use in the studio. The most

important thing about the surrounds is to have them above and behind

you, but also pointing at your head. They will sound very muffled

otherwise and that will be distracting. It shouldn't be too hard

however to give them a little tilt pointing downwards if they're on top

of a bookshelf. After all, it's all the custom little quirks like this

that make the hobby interesting.

[t-man]

Any KG that fit would be fine for HT. It sounds like your space is tight and that your couch is on the back wall? Not that you can likely help it, but my HT world got much better when I was able to get my listening position away from that back wall! You should consider porting issues with your rears. If you can only slap the rears against a wall, than you really can't use rear ported system to its potential. My KG 2.2s have rear ports, so they need some room between them and the wall. 2x diameter of the port.

I'm kind of forced to use KG1s because they are sealed and my space is tight, otherwise I would use the 2.2s I have laying around, as they are a much better speaker.

My 2.2s are in very excellent condition, but I purchased them used from a guy claiming they were in storage for 6 years. I had them out of the box for a week for testing, and decided I couldn't use them afterall. $175+shipping

[richard107]

What if I could put them in a bookshelf where they could sit away from the back of it a bit, would that work, or would the confined space still degrade the sound? How big is the port?

Although, I just checked their dimensions, and they look a little big for my space. I may have to go with the KG-1s also. Do you like them well enough?

[Mikekid]

As t-man has said, "If you can only slap the rears against a wall, than you really can't use rear ported system to its potential." But, if you use the Omnimount brackets for your KG's, you would be fine as they bring the speakers out from the wall. The KG .5/1.5/2.5 are tapped for Omnimounts. I use them on all of my KG's and they are very nice...but expensive. (A shelf would seem fine, just leave at least a couple of inches between the speaker and wall.)

Take care & welcome.

Mike

[t-man]

If the KG1s look "too big for your space", best not look at anything else. They did sell a KG .5 that was smaller, but I don't know about them. I like my KG1s and they would match the genre of your Fortes with identical speaker grills/badging as well as cabinet finish.

[dougdrake]

My speakers are in the same family as yours (see profile). I

recently acquired some Academy's just to see what all the fuss was

about - I had been using a Forte as a center for my Chorus

speakers. What I found was that the Academy is simply terrific as

a center speaker for theater use - the dialog is crystal clear, more so

than the Forte I was using. So, if your main intent is for HT

use, I'd seek out an Academy.

OTOH, I think the Forte is a better center for multi-channel

audio. However, you said that wasn't your main concern. In

my case, I use my system for both HT and audio. Thus, I'm

figuring out a way to use the Forte center for multi-channel music, and

the Academy for HT.

[rplace]

Great questions and great info so far. The only thing I could add from my personal experience would be don't think about any other center besides the Academy (assuming you don't want or can't fit another forte). I have had Forte IIs since day one brand new in box. Used two other centers and was never happy. The academy is a victim of supply and demand...but don't let that deter you. Seems like in the last few months they have been just a bit on the lower priced side. Scoop one up and don't look back. The are worth every penny.

[Cal Blacksmith]

I have a pair of Fort'e 1s as mains in my HT and use a Heresy 1 with an

upgraded xover as a center with Heresy 2s for surounds and just to fill

in for now a pair of Quintets for back speakers. I am very pleased with

the setup and find the match (for my tin ears) to be quite good.

Reference level sound is easily achieved with my Yamaha RX-V750.

The Fort'e is a great speaker and do very well as mains. You can see my latest HT system in the following thread.

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/555128/ShowPost.aspx

[t-man]

There are some KG1s in oiled oak on ebay right now.

[dkp]

I will have an Academy for sale here shortly. Raw oak painted black. Exceptional shape...

David

[Cal Blacksmith]

David, How much are you going to ask for it? My Forte mains are black also and it would fit right in.

[dkp]

Cal-I sent you a PM.

David

[richard107]

Dear Everyone,

Thanks for ALL your wonderful advice and kind welcomes. This has given me tons to chew on, and I'm just getting started. To those of you who have equipment for sale and so forth, I'm not quite ready to go forward yet, but will check back in when things advance.

Best to all.