heresy2guy Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 There are several threads on Khorn/Jubile projects and/or modifications already in the forums. I know that PWK originally wanted to make the Khorn a two-way speaker but due to driver limitations, had to resort to a three-way. He apparently got his wish with respect to his final project, the Jubilee, since it's of a two-way nature with one horn going from circa 700-850hz or so (I don''t have the stats in front of me) all the way up to 20khz. Radian offers the 850 PB 2" compression driver that looks good on paper and I was wondering if anybody's heard it before and if so, on what horn? It seems to have great frequency response (smoother and better extended then even Radian's flagship 950 PB) and is 113db efficient with good power handling. Anybody have any thoughts as to the type of exponential or tractrix horn that could be used to cover from approximately 500-750hz all the way up to 20khz for a two-way Khorn or Jubilee?Here's a link to the driver:http://www.radianaudio.com/products/compression/2_driver.php4?viewT=compression&viewC=2_driver&viewI=Specifications 651PB 760PB 850PB FREQUENCY RESPONSE 500 Hz 20 kHz 500 Hz 20 kHz 500 Hz 20 kHz MAXIMUM POWER HANDLING* 50 watts RMS 60 watts RMS 75 watts RMS SENSITIVITY 110 dB, one watt at one meter 111 dB, one watt at one meter 113 dB, one watt at one meter RECOMMENDED CROSSOVER 500 Hz, 24 dB/octave 1200 Hz, 12 dB/octave 500 Hz, 24 dB/octave 1200 Hz, 12 dB/octave 500 Hz, 24 dB/octave 1200 Hz, 12 dB/octave NOMINAL IMPEDANCE (LF/HF) 8 or 16 ohms 8 or 16 ohms 8 or 16 ohms D.C. Resistance 6.2 or 12.4 ohms (±10%) 6.2 or 12.4 ohms (±10%) 6.2 or 12.4 ohms (±10%) VOICE COIL DIAMETER 3.0 (76.2mm) 3.0 (76.2mm) 3.0 (76.2mm) THROAT DIAMETER 2.0 (50.8mm) 2.0 (50.8mm) 2.0 (50.8mm) VOICE COIL MATERIAL Edgewood copper- clad aluminum Edgewood copper- clad aluminum Edgewood copper- clad aluminum DIAPHRAGM MATERIAL 0.002 (0.05mm) heat-treated aluminum alloy 0.002 (0.05mm) heat-treated aluminum alloy 0.002 (0.05mm) heat-treated aluminum alloy DIAPHRAGM SUSPENSION Mylar® Mylar® Mylar® MAGNET 49.6 oz. (1.41 kg) Ferrite V 49.6 oz. (1.41 kg) Ferrite V 72.0 oz. (2.04 kg) Ferrite V FLUX DENSITY 16,400 gauss 17,000 gauss 19,000 gauss INPUT CONNECTORS Goldplated push-button terminals Goldplated push-button terminals Goldplated push-button terminals MOUNTING Four 1/4-20 studs, on 4.0" (101.6mm) centers Four 1/4-20 studs, on 4.0" (101.6mm) centers Four 1/4-20 studs, on 4.0" (101.6mm) centers DIMENSIONS 6.50 (165.1mm) diameter, 2.62 (66.5mm) deep less studs 6.50 (165.1mm) diameter, 2.85 (72.4mm) deep less studs 7.50 (190.5mm) diameter, 2.85 (72.4mm) deep less studs WEIGHT 9.0 lbs. (4.18 kg) 11.0 lbs. (5.09 kg) 14.6 lbs. (6.63 kg) *EIA Standard RS-426A through a 1 kHz 24 dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley crossover. 651PB Amplitude vs. Frequency of the Radian 651PB measured on a 2 (50.8mm) high frequency horn with a one watt (2.83 Vrms) input at 8 ohms. 760PB Amplitude vs. Frequency of the Radian 760PB measured on a 2 (50.8mm) high frequency; horn with a one watt (2.83 Vrms) input at 8 ohms. 850PB Amplitude vs. Frequency of the Radian 850PB measured on a 2 (50.8mm) high frequency horn with a one watt (2.83 Vrms) input at 8 ohms. Mylar is a registered trademark of Dupont. Specifications subject to change without notice. Click Here To Download The PDF Format Of This Product Sheet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 Some things to consider, there is no straight horn made that can go from say 600-800Hz to 20K without compromise in frequency response or dispersion characteristics. The higher frequencies tend to "beam" as a natural course of events. I would rather take the approach of the BMS 4590 coax vs. a single diaphragm trying to do it all, too, just as a matter of physics. Bear in mind that virtually any single horn will have its drawbacks in such a wide frequency range. However, having accepted that unfortunate fact, an equalizer will be required for compensating, so now what you've gained is another piece of gear in the signal chain. Which is worse (or better), another crossover "notch" or another active component in the signal chain? I see from what I've wrote that I am clearly biased. Take that into account. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I think the 850 looks fantastic on paper. I've never heard one. I have not persued them because of the size of 2" 500 Hz horns. They are relatively rare, too. I'd love to find a pair of Altec 511Cs, the 2" throat version, at a price I could afford. I'd trade my 511Bs for them, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 John, " I'd love to find a pair of Altec 511Cs, the 2" throat version, at a price I could afford. I'd trade my 511Bs for them, too." 511E... call Bill at Great Plains Audio. He was/is considering building some of them. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 I think the 511E used the 1.4" Altec large format throat, not the JBLish 2". Which is OK if one likes Radian, they make 1.4" throat, 3" diaphragm drivers. JBL made some 2" throat radial horns and they're pretty cheap at Jammin Jersey, there was also an Emilar 2" throat 500hz radial horn. And many Community radial horns. So if one is keen on radial horns one needn't wait for rare or expensive Altecs like 511Es or 311s to come along. As for Radian, I've heard several rigs that sounded excellent using Radian compression drivers and I had very good results using Radian diaphragms in Altec and JBL drivers. IMO&E Radian makes first-rate gear and were I in the market for new compression drivers I'd go with either Radian or Iconic (though I'd more likely buy old Altecs or JBLs). Note too that Radians are made in southern California, the Olympus of the Great Horn Gods. Note too that some astute pro hornys say that Radians fail more than they should under hard pro use but that said I've never heard of anyone having trouble with them in hi-fi use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsear Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I recently grappled with the mid-range driver issue (as many of you know). In looking for a driver that would be as solid on the lower end as the upper range (400 Hz to 4.5 kHz in my instance). I ended up with vintage JBL 2482 compression drivers. I've yet to complete or install them but they seem ideal for a mid-range. Curious too, in my search I found that many people prefer more the 3 drivers. They feel a bass, upper bass, mid-range and tweeter with the appropriate crossovers better suits the ability of drivers to perform their best. In others words none would be overly challenged and you hear the strongest and fastest responding segments for each driver at all volumes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I've tried a Radian 850 on a good 400hz horn. It doesn't measure well below 1Khz, and doesn't sound so hot above 8Khz (although it measures well in this area). I sent my samples back to Radian. I think a three-way has more potential, but if you want to go two-way, fine. Just remember, there are better sounding choices than the Radian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunnysal Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 " Just remember, there are better sounding choices than the Radian" Dennis don't tease...list' em thanks, tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted November 1, 2005 Author Share Posted November 1, 2005 It seems to be boiling down to the age-old debate over two-way vs. three-way. I must say, however, that I'm a bit surprised over the apparent three-way fans who have posted thus far. In the four years or so I've been surfing this forum, I seem to recall most people being in favor of a two-way design IF the driver and horn are up to the task. To my knowledge, PWK seemed to subscribe to this method of thinking as well and this no doubt left its mark on a lot of people here on this forum, myself included I'm not afraid to admit. Dennis - Did Radian ever respond to your results (probably not I'd imagine)? Do you still have 'em and would you mind posting 'em by chance? Was it an exponential or tractrix horn that you used for the test of the 850 PB? I myself was thinking along the lines of a big ol' tractrix horn, with the theory that the lower I could cross it, the better, especially since I love how the midrange horn of my La Scalas drop all the way to 400hz. But perhaps the reason PWK crossed it so low has something to do with the relatively poor bass response of both the La Scala and the Khorn cabinets in the upper regions?? I seem to recall reading a few posts somewhere along the line that focused on just this issue and one that specifically talked about the Jubille bass bin going so strongly into the 800hz region that there wasn't a need to cross over at 400hz like on the Khorn or La Scala. Or perhaps the higher crossover point simply focused on the fact that PWK wanted the Jubilee to be a two-way speaker, so....perhaps a higher point was needed in order for the horn to try and reach all the way to 20kz as flatly as possible with no obscene dips in the 400-800hz region??? I'm just guessing here guys...so feel free to chime in here and help me out - I'm no speaker "expert" - lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 I didn't hear a single complaint in Hope when we heard the Jubilee 2 way. It had an electronic crossover but it sounded incredible. The Jubilee is my new dream speaker and I was amazed by how much sound came from a single Jubilee nevermind both going at the same time. Jubilee XOver http://forums.klipsch.com/photos/the_klipsch_gallery/category1001/picture609901.aspx Jubilee Cabinet #3 http://www.beefalo.org/hope/Hope-Pages/Image138.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted November 2, 2005 Share Posted November 2, 2005 "Did Radian ever respond to your results (probably not I'd imagine)? Do you still have 'em and would you mind posting 'em by chance? Was it an exponential or tractrix horn that you used for the test of the 850 PB? " The horn I ended up liking the best was the EV HP640, about 28" wide, 13" tall, and about 24" deep (depending on the driver used). It is a conical type expansion, very large mouth, and very long. You can cross it at 400hz (if your driver will permit), about 3X the mouth area of the K400. While a CD type horn, it does not have the usual narrow 'pinch' in the throat that can cause nasty sound. It does have vanes in the throat like the original K5, these really work. "don't tease...list' em " For this application I pulled a Meyer trick. Meyer buys JBL 2450 drivers, removes and sells the stock diaphragm, and installs the 2441 diaphragm. I used the ceramic magnet 2445 which had a custom 2450 phase plug installed (later this phase plug was offered as the 2446, a ceramic magnet, but a bit smaller than the 2445 magnet, and with the 2450 diaphragm). The hot set-up now is the 2450SL diaphragm. These all sound good crossed at 630hz or higher. If you have lots of money, there is always the TAD 400X series. Lately I have been using the EV DH-1A, a very nice sounding driver. They have been virtually giving these away on eBay recently, two weeks ago a pair of HP640/DH1A went for $178.50, a week ago another pair went for $250. I have lost count how many of these I have. If I was going to do a two-way like the Jubilee I would probably use the Altec 288G/H/K/L on the EV HR90. Intended for an 800hz 12dB crossover, they may be crossed lower (600hz) with an extreme slope or 24dB crossover. I have a half dozen or so of these laying around. A clean pair of the HR60s just went on eBay for $63 (no drivers). "Jubilee XOver http://forums.klipsch.com/photos/the_klipsch_gallery/category1001/picture609901.aspx " That's a nice sounding crossover based on the Motorola 56007 DSP chip set. Sold under various different names with just a face plate change. I bought a couple of them used, one for $325, the other for $400 (list was around $1500). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresy2guy Posted November 3, 2005 Author Share Posted November 3, 2005 Any thoughts on utilizing this horn http://www.usspeaker.com/paudio%20ph-4525-1.htm with the Radian 850PB?? P.Audio PH-4525 - 2" - 90°x 40° Horn 2" THROAT SIZE - 90°x 40° DISPERSION - ABS + GLASS FIBER PH-4525 Item Price: $105.99 HORN MODEL PH-4525 Specifications Throat Size 2" / 50mm Dispersion 90°x 40° Cutoff Frequency 400Hz Mounting Type Bolt-on Construction ABS + Glass Fiber Net Weight 3.52 lb. / 1.6 kg. Mounting Information Overall Width 17.72" / 450mm<?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /> Overall Height 9.8" / 249mm Overall Depth 9.09" / 231mm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdnfay Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=270-204 Take a look at this horn. I used it in my jubilee clones and it's half the price. Big D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Here is the P-Audio 4525 horn frequency response as published by the manufacturer. Bear in mind that no single horn exists that is optimum for such a great range of frequencies, so all will be a compromise in one area or another... BigDn's recommendation for the Goldwood (chinese virtual clone) horn is extremely good, too. The ONLY difference that I know of is the P-Audio 400Hz Fc, Goldwood is 500Hz Fc at half the price of the P-Audio version. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted November 4, 2005 Share Posted November 4, 2005 Here is the BMS 4590 coax driver in the P-Audio 4525 horn frequency response: DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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