Veneer calculations

[colterphoto1]

HELP Greg, Jorjen or other woodworkers.

Rick 3Dzapper was kind enough to point out an ebay auction for teak wood. I'm considering using this for 5 Cornwall cabinets and 2 Heresy that I will use in my Home system. The Heresy might be side fills, but at the least are pretty horribly aged Walnut Lacquer. 4 of the CW's are really beat up WO models. So they deserve the TLC

Can anyone help me with the selection, pricing and ordering of the material. I know the actual material usage will be based on the width of raw veneer and how it will be utilized. I've calculated a basic need of 20 ft2 per CW cabinet as a starting point.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Manufactured-TEAK-Hardwood-Veneer-42-Sheets-Hard-To-Get_W0QQitemZ8230082881QQcategoryZ3131QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Here's the website where a guy has 42 pieces of veneer 11 3/4 x 111 inches. I'd have to book match to make CW sides and it would take three pieces since they're not wide enough. Looks like enough to do my projects plus some, but I have no experience with ordering this material.

Help please,

Michael

[3dzapper]

CP1, That shoulb be enough to do 14 Cornwalls with enough left over from each Corn to do a Heresy. (2X36)x 2 sides plus (2x26) x 2 ends = 97" from 2 @111" lengths plus 26" from 2 more leaving 85" x2. A heresy is about 74". Wrap the continous grain around the sides and top then use the slight mismatch on the bottom. On verts, wrap both short sides to match the top and match the other long side as closely as possible.

Rick

[colterphoto1]

How much are you thinking would be a good price? And is this the type of veneer that I should be using? I got your note about the thickness, I was worried about the width but saw that I had the measurements wrong. 11" x2 will easily cover the sides which are 15.5". Should I need backed veneer or will I be doing the bookmatching and backing by myself?

I'm a pretty good carpenter and finisher. Never done work of this calibre but that lot would give a bunch to practice with, cull our or sell, right?

Thanks guys

Michael

[BS Button]

Colter,

Go to www.tyleracoustics.com and click on "about us"

Then go to finishes section. In there you find a lead for Oakwood veneer. com.

Look around, search a bit and find the phenolic backed veneer, or paper backed. If you get into the raw veneer, it's very unforgiving. Also look for a rather healthy thickness: I'd guess something over around a 1/32nd, or thickerer.........................and especially on the raw. Good luck!

[Tom Mobley]

www.certainlywood.com

They are very easy and reasonable to work with. They mostly have

the thicker, raw, unbacked veneer. I recommend this stuff, it's

what Greg used to do the original set of Heresy's that inspired a bunch

of guys on the forum (including me) to try it themselves. see his

article at http://www.dcchomes.com/Heresy.html see my

Belle build thread at

http://forums.klipsch.com/idealbb/view.asp?topicID=53278 A

couple other guys posted stuff to, jorjen did some really nice work.

Nice thing about the thicker stuff is you can actually sand it some if

you need to fix a mistake. The paper backed stuff is like

microscopically thin.

You can use either the iron-on method or go with contact cement.

I chose the iron -on deal because it seemed to go better with the

unbacked veneer I wanted to use. If you're going to use that

backed stuff you might want to consider contact cement. Just be

real careful about any uneven sub-strate or bumps unber the veneer if

you go that way. If you need to sand out any kind of bump or

raised area you will sand through the veneer right away.

PS That auction makes me nervous. I wonder what is

behind his consistent use of the word "manufactured" when describing

the veneer? Veneer is not manufactured, it is sawn, spliced,

split or peeled.

[3dzapper]

"PS That auction makes me nervous. I wonder what is behind his consistent use of the word "manufactured" when describing the veneer?"

It is pre sanded and if necessary pre-stitched bookmarked flitches. When purchasing any veneer wider than about a foot, it is likely been already stitched together. For the proffessional cabinette refacer, stitching many small narrow fitches at the job site is impracticle and labor intensive. By buying it "manufactured", the job will go faster with fewer errors at a lower cost. A win,win,win scenerio.

I don't know if the seller is a cabinette refinisher, distributor or plywood mill. He does have a good feedback rating selling similiar products. I have been outbid several times when he has had some walnut up. I'll keep trying.

That sapele he has up is nice too. If you look you can discern about 6 stitched fitches in the three foot width.

[colterphoto1]

Yes Rick, I saw that too, that's some beautiful wood, and remember these are 'dry' veneers, imagine how they'll shine when properly finished!

I'm going to go for it. The price seems reasonable, the panels large enough to speed my work flow, and the lots are big enough that I can co my 5xCW and 2xH with plenty to cull out, use for practice and possibly sell some to other forum members wanted to try their hand at this.

Now all I've got to do is figure out how to win the bidding. Any ideas what this lot is worth at retail pricing? I'll check out the certainlywood site and try to do some comparisons.

Michael

[Duke Spinner]

i think you should buy veneer with a backing ...

[Malcolm]

Just a few words on joining up sheets to get the width you need...

To do it right, you need to joint the edges (get a true, straight edge)

to be joined. There are any number of ways of doing this. I

made a jig that rides in the slot on my router table to do it.

Some folks clamp the veneer between two boards and make a few passes on

a jointer.

After you joint the edges, you need to tape them together and glue the

edges together. Then you just have a single sheet to deal with

when gluing to the substrate. Don't count on being able to get a

good fit if you try to glue up the pieces separately, or just tape

them. You are likely to wind up with overlaps or gaps you will

have to deal with.

[colterphoto1]

Todd, I checked out the pricing for oakwood veneer company. Golden Teak would be $5 per square foot, which would be $150 per 4x8 sheet. On sheet wouldn't do even two Cornwalls. Way too expensive for the numbers I'm working with. I'll just have to perfect my technique and learn to work with the unbacked material. I think that's what some other guys have used.

I have a router table, so could make up the jig to edge the sheets prior to joining. I know it's a huge undertaking, but I'll be careful and not do something that can't be undone. At this price I can practice a LOT.

Michael

[Tom Mobley]

the raw mahogany I got for my Belle was $1.70sq ft from

certainlywood. did you do a search on completed auctions for the

teak? usually get an idea that way.

[3dzapper]

When I did my Khorns,etc, I used a 4 foot level C clamped over a group of sheets on a long board and a veneer saw to obtain the straight edges for taping.

For smaller projects like amp cases, I have used clamps, a straight edge, an Xacto knife and sandpaper with good results.

Rick

[Malcolm]

If you haven't already found a good book on veneering, you might want to get one:

Books on Veneering

FWIW I don't think you'll have much of a problem with unbacked teak

veneer. Just make sure the veneer is flat before you try to glue

it down. You may have to moisten it slighly (mist) and put it

under some weight between layers of paper for a day or too, but most of

the teak veneer I have seen is pretty flat to start with. Then

just make sure you have a good substrate and go to it.

[greg928gts]

Michael, here's the links to my webpages, in case you want to refer to them.

http://www.dcchomes.com/Heresy.html

http://dcchomes.com/LaScala.html

http://www.dcchomes.com/JBL.html

http://www.dcchomes.com/RosewoodKhorn.html

http://www.dcchomes.com/WalnutKhorn.html

http://www.dcchomes.com/ZCorn.html

I think you're getting some pretty good advice here in this thread, although there are a few options being bantered about which can make things a little confusing. I'm not sure how much I can help, but I'll try to pass on some more information to you.

Now that I've done a few projects with raw wood veneer and the iron-on method, I look back at when I installed NBL backed veneer with contact cement on a set of Khorns and realize how easy it was.

I've covered this in threads before, but here goes again. Backed veneer is very easy to apply with contact cement and the results are very good. When you buy NBL backed veneer from http://www.tapeease.com in 4 x 8 sheets, the bookmatching of the veneer strips is already done for you, and the splices are perfect. The veneer is VERY flat and perfect too. The overall results were as good if not better than anything I've done so far with raw wood veneer.

There are two main drawbacks to using NBL backed veneer. One is that the cut and trimmed edges of the veneer show the backer, which means that you'll have a light colored line everwhere you have a cut edge. With light colored woods, this line blends in pretty good, but with the rosewood (or other darker veneers) I felt the need to paint the edges. Yes, paint them with an artists brush and a palette of craft paints, including black for the black lines in the rosewood. It was tedious work. Another drawback is that the actual wood veneer is very, VERY thin. I would love to see how they actually make this stuff. I can't imagine the machinery involved in cutting, attaching the veneer to the backer, and sanding it smooth. Just amazing. But it means that you really can't sand the veneer, at least not very much. As I became more skilled at doing veneer, I got better at installing, trimming and lightly sanding the backed veneer. But it takes time. It was recommended to me that I start with one or two projects before I do any speakers that were important to me. I did that, and you should too, even though you won't want to.

Using raw, unbacked veneer is much more of a woodworking project than the backed veneer. By that I mean you are actually doing more work with real wood and not just applying a layer on the speakers. It is much more difficult to do raw wood veneer properly and get good results. Where the NBL backed veneer is stable, consistent, and easy to work with, the raw wood veneer is the opposite.

I like the raw wood veneer because I like working with wood. It's certainly more of a challenge. When the speakers are finished, there is an added dimension to the raw wood that you don't get with the backed. The grain is more pronounced and the wood has depth to it. You will also have the potential for a lot more imperfections with the raw wood, which of course makes it look more real. The difference between a good woodworker and a great woodworker is that a great woodworker is better at covering up his mistakes. I'm still learning to be a good woodworker.

When I first started doing the raw wood veneer, I resisted using a veneer saw to cut the veneer on the long dimension for matching the sheets together, but I have since learned about the necessity of using a veneer saw.

This is a great website for veneering tools http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/welcome.htm

I borrowed a portable metal brake from a friend to hold the veneer in place, over a piece of cardboard, so that I could cut the edges with a saw. You can see pictures of this in one of my links above. 3D's idea of clamping down a metal straight edge would also work good. But no matter what, you will need to use a saw to get a good clean seam where the two sheets come together. Then you will use veneer tape to hold them together while you glue them up and apply them to the speaker.

The Heresy thread has good directions for the iron-on method, so I won't go into that here. But one thing I would like to say is that I've had a lot of trouble with the veneer not laying flat, or bubbling after it's ironed on. I'm having such difficulty with it that when I finally get back into my shop to do another set of speakers, I will really be starting from scratch again. I don't have much confidence right now in my abililty to make the iron-on method with Titebond II glue work properly. In fact, I'm not sure anyone should really be putting much stock in my advice given in those links I've provided above. Good luck and proceed at your own risk.

Greg

[colterphoto1]

Thanks for taking the time to respond Greg. I'd been nearly deciding not to attempt any project at all.

It's only wood, after all. It's maleable, almost anything done can be undone or redone. What's the harm in trying. After all, I've been looking forward to this for some time.

M

[Marvel]

Michael,

It was the certainlywood website that I got the wood examples from for

the 3D drawings. Just wanted to let you lnow I hadn't forgotten ya.

The program acts up every once in awhile. I want to render a higher res image than the ones I had already done.

Bruce

[Malcolm]

Gee, don't get discouraged. It takes some learning to do a good

veneer job. But it isn't rocket science. Take your

time. Research the process first. Practice. And then

you should be able to do a good job on the real thing.

Or, heck, just go for broke. The best way to learn is to make

mistakes, if you can afford it. Probably best to make the

mistakes on something unimportant...

[greg928gts]

Thanks for taking the time to respond Greg. I'd been nearly deciding not to attempt any project at all.

I think you should go for it, but just do your due diligence and take your time.

It's only wood, after all. It's maleable, almost anything done can be undone or redone. What's the harm in trying. After all, I've been looking forward to this for some time.

M

That's easy to say until you have spent weeks on the project, fixed numerous little problems along the way, have it almost completely done, and then find out that the oil you are using for the finish is bubbling the veneer! [:'(]

Greg

[colterphoto1]

I'm a little disheartened right now. That whole pile of Teak sold for like $72. arrrggghhhh

Maybe I just won't do anything now......

[TommyC]

Michael, stick to it. (No pun intended!) I am learning to do veneer too, and it is definitly an aquired talent. I am lucky that a friend of my stepson's has a family member who does furnature repair for a living. He gives me scraps to play with and advice when I ask. I have been veneering Everything lately to practice. Yesterday, I put rosewood veneer on a 2X4 and it came out great! No practical use for a rosewood veneered 2X4, but all I had were some very thin scraps and they fit So well! [] I have tried iron on and contact cement, and have mixed feelings along the lines already discussed. The contact cement method is So much easier, but the iron on with unbacked veneer (when done right) is a better finished product IMHO. I don't have any speakers in need of veneer yet (Man do I need some Cornwalls!!) but when I find them, I will be ready!