Couple of nice MKIIIs

[sfogg]

"But in reality my basic theory is absolutely correct."

In your mind anyway.... Measure the resistance of the ICL, your theory

on it isn't correct. The theory doesn't agree with actual measurements,

IOW bad theory.

Besides, your original claim was that no current flowed through the ICL till B+ came up.

Later on you changed your mind on that and posted that about a 1/3 of

an amp flowed through the ICL (along with a larger surge at initial

turn on) till the B+ came up. Go get a 40 watt light bulb (1/3 of an

amp current draw from the wall socket) and see if you can hold it in

your hand after turning it on for a minute.

Same amount of power is heating the ICL that heated the light bulb, and

the ICL is considerably smaller then the glass envelope of the bulb...

less thermal mass... heats faster.

Shawn

[edwinr]

...less thermal mass... heats faster. Yeah, maybe so, but on the other hand with less mass, less heat is retained = greater heat dissipation.

... and Shawn, I just can't understand why you would think anything will draw more current when cold. That goes against all logic. Even from my very non-technical point of view.

[NOSValves]

Shawn,

You need to go look at the specs of them Thermistors again you still do not have a clue. I'm amazed at just how long you will go on making a complete fool of your self when your dead wrong. I posted what actually happens in the situation we were discussing. I tested and reported the results with both rectifier tubes in question. But being the side stepping petty vindictive fool that you are you refuse to even address that post you would rather blindly go by some specification that you obviously do not completely understand. Look at the approximate resistance under load of these thermistors in the spec sheet below and you will see that for the first 30 to 45 seconds when only the heaters are drawing current there is no way there even using 15% of the rated current of the thermistor so when the mass of inrush current of actual B+ starts rising with a 5AR4 the inrush current limiter indeed still has substantial resistance to slow down the process. You have no clue how they work in the REAL WORLD of tube audio.

The classic battle of the technically minded against the technically experienced.

You dead wrong in this application be a man and admit it.

Craig

[NOSValves]

Oops forgot the chart

[NOSValves]

"But in reality my basic theory is absolutely correct."

In your mind anyway.... Measure the resistance of the ICL, your theory on it isn't correct. The theory doesn't agree with actual measurements, IOW bad theory.

Besides, your original claim was that no current flowed through the ICL till B+ came up.

Show where I said absolutely no current flowed through it please? EDIT you were right I did mis-speak about the Zero current sorry my mistake. I went back and changed my mistakes. It would be nice if you would do the same.

Later on you changed your mind on that and posted that about a 1/3 of an amp flowed through the ICL (along with a larger surge at initial turn on) till the B+ came up. Go get a 40 watt light bulb (1/3 of an amp current draw from the wall socket) and see if you can hold it in your hand after turning it on for a minute.

I do not need to do any more testing, I came up with these further details not by changing my mind but by testing the actual amp under discussion to prove my case. You just want to speculate and throw out techno babble to try and impress those that may be impressed by such petty behavoir.

Same amount of power is heating the ICL that heated the light bulb, and the ICL is considerably smaller then the glass envelope of the bulb... less thermal mass... heats faster.

Who the hell cares about a god damn light bulb were talking about a particular tube amp and how it reacts to a improper rectifier installation and then how it reacts with a thermistor with the both the proper and improper rectifier. Unlike you I went to the trouble to test this to put absolute proof up. I at least gave your point of view the benefit of making sure I was correct. You just dismiss real work testing and go on with your techno babble.

[NOSValves]

" THE POINT IS IN A TUBE AMP NO CURRENT IS SUSTAINABLY DRAWN UNTIL THE HEATERS IN THE POWER TUBES AND FRONT END TUBES WARM UP. " And that is complete nonsense. The heaters draw more current when the tubes are cold then they will when they are warm. Not theory, fact. Measure it since you can't figure out Ohm's Law well enough to know why that is the case. Then measure the resistance of your InRush current limiter when the amp is dead cold. Turn it on for 10 or 15 seconds (well before the B+ is coming up from your own statement) and then shut the amp off again and quickly remeasure the Inrush current limiter's resistance. Guess what Craig... it is going to have dropped in resistance by then. Not theory, fact. I have measured it as posted earlier in the thread. Your flight of fancy about no current draw from an amp until B+ comes up and the tubes are warm is yet another misunderstanding of electronics. "Just answer this simple question. " I have answered that question, you are too busy arguing to read the posts. A single resistor (or thermistor) inline with a circuit limits current, not voltage. "Just so you know I have a top of the line fluke meter and a $2000 fluke scopemeter... thanks you very much" Then learn to use them and measure the current draw from the wall at turn on with a cold amp with and without an inrush current limiter in them. Then if you like repeat both ways with a 5U4 and with a 5AR4. Be sure the amp/tubes are cold on each power on. "I wasn't talking about measuring current I'm talking about voltage spike get it through your head." You have said current surge many times in this thread. If you are talking voltage then use the proper terminology. The whole point that it is called an Inrush *current* limiter should tell you what its use is for. It isn't a voltage clamp. " Rick and I know exactly why it doesn't work to stop the voltage spike with a 5U4 or SS rectification but does a wonerful job with a 5AR4." I guess you missed the post were Rick stated: "That said, a thermistor would work best against turn on surges in the power supply if the filament current were to be seperated. The high current drawn by the filaments heats the thermistor too fast to be effective on the high voltage seen by the power supply capacitors. Thus there would be no effective protection for that 500V capacitor." So yes... Rick understands how an inrush current limiter works and what happens with an amp on turn on and is saying the same thing I am. The initial current through the amp is going to heat ICL to the point were it is going to be doing very little by the time the B+ comes up with a 5AR4. Not the exact opposite like you are claiming. "Explain why in the Dynaco Mark III amp with a thermistor that I just freshly rebuilt and just got done firing it up, First with a 5AR4 and then a 5U4 I even switched out all the tubes out after the first test to be sure they were all cold! The following is the voltage that the first filter cap was subject too. With 5AR4 took a full 45 seconds for any B+ voltage to begin to be produced and then it slowly and steadily rose to 410V and then creeped up very slow to 485V With 5U4 the voltage was there in a split second and just about instantly hit 535V !!! " This has already been explained in this thread. It is from the rectification, it has next to nothing to do with the Inrush current limiter. Take out the inrush current limiter and you will likely see next to no difference in the above measurements at all. You will however see a large difference in the current surge on the amp at power on with either rectifier in place. Measure the resistance of the ICL 45 seconds after power on when the B+ is just starting to come up. According to your posts the ICL won't have heated at all because the amp doesn't pull current until the B+ is coming up so the ICL should still be at its initial cold resistance level. Measure it and you will find that is not at all the reality of what has happened with the ICL. Shawn

Shawn,

Just reading this post and thought I would return the favor of pointing out every nit picky flaw I can find.

You said above

This has already been explained in this thread. It is from the rectification, it has next to nothing to do with the Inrush current limiter. Take out the inrush current limiter and you will likely see next to no difference in the above measurements at all.

Your dead wrong it is widely known that the 5AR4 can not fully cure the voltage spike and this is the reason Mark III's have always been known to be hard on the PS filter cans. With a 5AR4 and no thermistor the voltage spikes to 575V in the stock Mark III. Of course your lack of real world experience wouldn't allow you to know this fact. The in rush current limiter works just as I suggest it the resistance it presents only goes to near nothing when substantial current is drawn through. When using 2 Amp version the heaters are only pulling 15% of the thermistors rated current. See the spec sheet that I posted and you will see this will not render the thermistor useless when the tubes start drawing current as the 5AR4 starts making B+ it is indeed still able to do its job.

Craig

[Marvel]

... and Shawn, I just can't understand why you

would think anything will draw more current when cold. That goes

against all logic. Even from my very non-technical point of

view.

edwin,

A tungsten filament in a light bulb has an extremely low resistance

when cold, so draws a lot of current. Its resistance goes up as it

heats up (positive temp coefficient). They heat up fast, and it is

often the thermal shock that causes them to blow on first turn on.

The main thing is that an ICL has a negative temp coefficient

(resistance goes down as it heats up). The one that Shannon parks uses

is a CL-90, which has a resistance when cold of 120 ohms. Resistors act

as current limiters (for example, most l.e.d.s have a resistor in

series to limit current flow through them). Caps act as a dead short

until charged (as well as other devices). The voltage drop across the

ICL, causes current through it and as it heats up, the resistance

actually drops.

This should mean that more current flows through it, which would be

true if the caps didn't charge up. The resistance in the caps becomes

higher as they charge, which then limits the current through the

circuit. The ICL has then heated up and its resistance has dropped to a

fraction of what it was.

If you hooked up a CL-90 and a 120 ohm resistor in series across a 120v

line, at turn on each device would have a current flow of .5 amps (120

ohm ICL and 120 ohm resistor= 240 ohm total, I=E/R). As the ICL heats

up and its resistance drops, the current will go up in the circuit, due

to the fact that the resistor value doesn't change (unlike resistance

through caps, tubes, etc.). The ICL should drop down to about 1.2

ohms. That means the current through the two devices is now going to be

.99 amps (1.2 ohms ICL + 120 ohm resistor= 121.2 ohms, I=E/R), almost a

full amp. If that was feeding a cap, there would be a resistance in it

after being charged. It is called ESR (equivalent series resistance),

and is the resistance of all the parts in a cap at a certain frequency.

Then the current would drop back down.

The circuits end up being pretty complex, so that in reality there is a

lot more going on, but that is it in another one of my nutshells.

Bruce

[sfogg]

Ed,

"... and Shawn, I just can't understand why you would think anything will draw more current when cold. That goes against all logic."

Current drawn is simply a matter of the voltage and resistance the circuit will see. That is basic electronics.... OHM's Law.

Current = Voltage divided by resistance....

I = V/R

Measure the resistance of the heaters in the tubes when they are cold... they measure at about .7 ohms resistance each. When they are turned on they are heated by 6.3 volts.

Using the techno babble above solve for I (current).

I = 6.3 / .7

Current = 9 amps per tube at 6.3v.

Now look at the amp. rating of an EL-34 heaters... you will find it is 1.5 amps per tube. That rating is obviously on a warmed up tube. So you can deduce that the resistance of the heaters in the tubes increase when they warm up....

If you want to know what the resistance of a hot EL-34 heater is you can calculate that knowing 1.5 amps and 6.3 volts.

Resistance equals volts divided by amps... (more techno babble also known as Ohm's Law)

R = V/I

R = 6.3 / 1.5

R = 4.2 ohms

Then add on to that a cold amp (and amp that has been off) has all its capacitors discharged, the transformers (esp. torroids) have no field built up in them.... you get an inrush of current charging all the above up.

Shawn

[maxg]

What am I doing in this thread? 10 pages - over a capacitor!!!!

Anyway - simple question:

What happens when you super-cool a thermistor/ICL with a negative temperature coefficient?

Does it?

a/ Reach infinite resistance.

b/ Decrease with temperature upto a certain point whereupon its resistance then starts to fall off to zero like everything else in the cosmos.

Totally academic interest - but real interest all the same.

Aside from that:

1. Craig did describe a thermistor wrongly on page 3 - but he still builds amps for a living (amps that have a very dedicated following) and knows enough on the practical side to put most others on this forum to shame.

2. Erik is stiring the pot and pushing buttons but he too builds amps for others (if only for a hobby rather than as a career).

Each should demonstrate a little more respect for the other IMHO.

Shawn could (maybe does) teach Electronics at University level from the look of things - but there is a little cant see the wood for the trees, again IMHO. Tripping up Craig linguistically is easy - but can you build a better amp than a VRD?

Rick seems to embody Craig's practicallity with Shawn's electronics knowledge and can actualy explain things so a layman can understand.

Craig,

I know it is a generally accepted principle that you do not write well, however, it really would help intelligibility if you could manage the following:

There - as in - it is over there.

Their - as in - it belongs to them.

They're - as in - they are.

In a single sentence:

They're trying to tell me, in their own way, to sit over there.

Mixing these three, randomly, as you do makes it extremely difficult to understand what you write.

We might tackle ridicules and ridiculous in another thread.

[NOSValves]

What am I doing in this thread? 10 pages - over a capacitor!!!!

Anyway - simple question:

What happens when you super-cool a thermistor/ICL with a negative temperature coefficient?

Does it?

a/ Reach infinite resistance.

b/ Decrease with temperature upto a certain point whereupon its resistance then starts to fall off to zero like everything else in the cosmos.

Totally academic interest - but real interest all the same.

Aside from that:

1. Craig did describe a thermistor wrongly on page 3 - but he still builds amps for a living (amps that have a very dedicated following) and knows enough on the practical side to put most others on this forum to shame.

2. Erik is stiring the pot and pushing buttons but he too builds amps for others (if only for a hobby rather than as a career).

Each should demonstrate a little more respect for the other IMHO.

Shawn could (maybe does) teach Electronics at University level from the look of things - but there is a little cant see the wood for the trees, again IMHO. Tripping up Craig linguistically is easy - but can you build a better amp than a VRD?

Rick seems to embody Craig's practicallity with Shawn's electronics knowledge and can actualy explain things so a layman can understand.

Craig,

I know it is a generally accepted principle that you do not write well, however, it really would help intelligibility if you could manage the following:

There - as in - it is over there.

Their - as in - it belongs to them.

They're - as in - they are.

In a single sentence:

They're trying to tell me, in their own way, to sit over there.

Mixing these three, randomly, as you do makes it extremely difficult to understand what you write.

We might tackle ridicules and ridiculous in another thread.

Max,

Thanks that was a lovely way to some things up in a diplomatic way! Man it's embarrassing to have a guy from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Greece teaching me English[:$] I'll try honestly I will. Maybe I should just start using MS word again and use the grammar/spell check. What I hate about that is for some reason it messes the fonts up in the process. It just doesn't integrate well with this forum software.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Craig

PS: Hey just ran it on this post and it does work fine with this forum software. Must have been the old software that had all the problems.

[maxg]

Phew - I am so glad you took that in the spirit it was meant - lets hope the others do too.

Oh - and if it makes you feel any better I may be in Greece but I am not Greek. I am English and only moved here about 14 years ago.

MS Word will help but it will not solve all the problems. Oftentimes you use a real word but in the wrong place - you will need to run the grammar checker as well as spell-check to get these things right.

Ridicules - for example, is a real word in the sense of "Craig ridicules Max's knowledge of electronics." The word that you usually want, however, is ridiculous:

"Max's knowledge of Electronics borders on the ridiculous"

An moderately up to date copy of Word should pick this sort of thing up - but watch out for the suggested changes as it does always get your meaning any more than I do....[]

[Tom Mobley]

hmpf. and all this time I thought Craig had written a program to

randomize useage of their/there/they're just to tweak the noses of the

forum grammar cops.

[sfogg]

"I posted what actually happens in the situation we were discussing. "

Keep dodging the fact that I already measured an ICL in the real world of tube audio and posted the results.

After 10-15 seconds the ICLs resistance in circuit already dropped from 26 ohms down to 8.

"You have no clue how they work in the REAL WORLD of tube audio. "

Give the BS a rest, I have already posted how they work in the real world of tube audio.

You are the one that was claiming there was no current draw for a minute after turn on in a 'real world' tube amp. Complete BS, how would the 5AR4 and output tubes heat up with no current beind drawn from the wall? Can't happen in the REAL WORLD, ever heard of the law of conservation of energy?

You were the one claiming an ICL starts to 'kick in' when current increases. BS. In the REAL WORLD the exact opposite occurs... they are already well reduced in their surge limiting from the heating that has occured from the current that has already flowed through them.

You were the one claiming the ICL works like a PTC thermistor (those would 'kick in' when current increased)... BS... they work completely in the opposite manor in the REAL WORLD. They are NTC thermistors.

Who again doesn't have a clue how things work in the real world?

"The classic battle of the technically minded against the technically experienced."

Technically minded/technically experienced against a major BSer....

"I do not need to do any more testing"

Dodging what actually happens in the real world again Craig? Typical... that you then claim I'm the one ignoring reality is even funnier.

" You just want to speculate and throw out techno babble to try and impress those that may be impressed by such petty behavoir."

I haven't speculated on the ICL, I measured it... in the REAL WORLD... something you are only speculating on and posting charts about.

Petty behavoir is posting information on why something works the way it does? That is pretty hilarious. I'll take that sort of 'petty behavior' over someone who can't back up what they claim and tries to make his point with a more and more chest beating and ad hominem attacks any day of the week. YMMV and obviously does.

You can claim Ohm's Law is techno babble all you want. The fact is it is how electricity works, doesn't matter if you are talking about a tube amp, a computer, SS amp... whatever... Ohm's Law applies. It is called Ohm's *Law* for a reason. That you fail to grasp even that most basic concept is telling.

"Who the hell cares about a god damn light bulb "

We were talking about how much heating occurs in the ICL after a minutes time with 1/3 of an amp through it. You claimed little to none. I was posting a simple demonstration anyone can try to determine if 1/3 of an amp at 120v has enough power to heat a device up in one minutes time. Power is power. Do the same test with a 40w soldering iron if you like and see if you can hold its tip in your hand for 60 seconds after turning it on.

"When using 2 Amp version the heaters are only pulling 15% of the thermistors rated current. See the spec sheet that I posted and you will see this will not render the thermistor useless when the tubes start drawing current as the 5AR4 starts making B+ it is indeed still able to do its job."

By the 2 amp version I take it you mean the CL-90 which has a 2 amp max rating on it?

The info on the CL-90 doesn't really tell you what will be happening after 60 seconds, the time constant on that one is based on 120 seconds. According to the chart at a quarter power after the two minutes the resistance will have dropped from 120 ohms down to just about 8 ohms. IOW, in that time the unit will have dropped from allowing no more then 1 amp through the circuit to allowing no more then the full 15amps of wall current through the circuit. (techno babbles Law) IOW, in that two minutes time the current limiting ability of that unit is basically gone unless a very large surge came through. And that heating is at a constant current draw over the two minutes which isn't what would happen in a real world circuit. To find out what that unit is doing in circuit after 60 seconds you are going to have to measure it.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Shawn,

Keep blabbering on! My test proved my case the Thermistor does the job just fine with a 5AR4 and does little good with a 5U4. Either rectifier without a thermistor slams the sh!t out of the can without a thermistor. Keep ignoring the true point of this entire subject it really makes you look like a reasonable person.

Where the hell do you get this 26 Ohm to 8 ohm bullshit??? It has nothing to do with the part I use or the test I ran. The thermistor I use starts out with 120 Ohms!! Youre just talking gibberish.

I never said ohms law was techno babble if I did show me where?? I said YOU <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />ARE FULL OF TECHNO BABBLE big difference.


The time frame IN THE APPLICATION WERE REFERENCES TOO is 45 seconds to one minute max. ONCE AGAIN MORE TECHNO BABBLE from the keyboard of Sfogg. The babble youre stating doesnt apply to the circuit in question and has nothing to do with the subject at hand. So you tested all this IN THE REAL WORLD? Then please tell us in what tube rectified amplifier you tested this in???<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Craig

[NOSValves]

Phew - I am so glad you took that in the spirit it was meant - lets hope the others do too.

I've learned through time around here who is posting in jest and who is being vindictive and underminding you happen to be a forth right and honest help here repeatedly for many

Oh - and if it makes you feel any better I may be in Greece but I am not Greek. I am English and only moved here about 14 years ago.

Yes that does make me feel better!

MS Word will help but it will not solve all the problems. Oftentimes you use a real word but in the wrong place - you will need to run the grammar checker as well as spell-check to get these things right.

I believe I said MS word Grammer/Spell check its all one program on my version of word

Ridicules - for example, is a real word in the sense of "Craig ridicules Max's knowledge of electronics." The word that you usually want, however, is ridiculous:

"Max's knowledge of Electronics borders on the ridiculous"

Oh boy I bet I have messed that one up too many times to count LMAO !!

An moderately up to date copy of Word should pick this sort of thing up - but watch out for the suggested changes as it does always get your meaning any more than I do....[]

[Marvel]

Shawn,

Where

the hell do you get this 26 Ohm to 8 ohm bullshit??? It has nothing to

do with the part I use or the test I ran. The thermistor I use starts

out with 120 Ohms!! Youre just talking gibberish.

Craig

Craig,

I'm trying to be reasonable here too. Shawn didn't mention 26 ohms.

What he did say is that with .5 amps going through the ICL ( 25% of the

2 amps rated current for the device) the resistance will drop from 120

ohms to 8 ohms (7.8 in the chart) in 120 seconds. So, yes, it does have

something to do with what you use.

Bruce

I think your resistance goes up as you get heated. []

[anarchist]

So after reading all these pages and getting a hell of a laugh out of

Max's post, I believe all this boils down to the following:

Craig states the use of a thermistor with a specific rectifier resolves the problem of the voltage spike in the MarkIII.

Others argue the thermistor isn't the solution but rather the rectifier choice in combination with the thermistor.

Craig can't tell you why things work but has developed solutions based on testing and the application of that testing.

Others can tell you exactly why things works but don't understand their

application to the particular problem Craig is resolving.

Hmmm. 11 pages for what seems to be rather simple. Its like

watching people arguing over which came first - the chicken or the egg.

PS. Craig, get rid of that damn Word spell/grammar checker.

Took years to train myself to read your writing - those corrected posts

had me thinking I was reading a foreign language.

[sfogg]

"Where the hell do you get this 26 Ohm to 8 ohm bullshit???"

Read the thread. I posted exactly where I tested this pages ago.

"Then please tell us in what tube rectified amplifier you tested this in???"

I already did. Perhaps if you actually read my posts instead of just going into argue mode once you saw I posted you would have seen it.

"The thermistor I use starts out with 120 Ohms!!"

And where does it end up after 10 seconds time, then after 60 seconds? You still haven't answered that.

After 60 seconds I still say it has dropped too far in resistance to do much of any good at that point, it is not 'kicking in' then. If you are seeing reduction in voltages it is likely because the heating relationship has changed between the rectifier and the output tubes due to the initial current limiting of the ICL, not what the ICL is doing after it has been heating (and dropping in resistance) for a minute. Time B+ to see if it comes on at the exact same amount of time from turn on with and without the ICL in circuit. Obviously the amp/tubes all need to start out cold for both tests.

BTW, if you just want to tame the overvoltage from the rectifier (and disregard the power on current surge through the rest of the amp) you are better off trying the NTC thermistor in the heater circuit for the rectifier. That way you slow the heating of the rectifier alone while the power tubes heat at the normal rate. That means B+ will be delayed in relation to when the power tubes start conducting. Or, if you really want to solve it right put in a timer circuit and then it won't be an issue with the 5AR4 or a 5U4.

Shawn

[NOSValves]

Shawn,

Where the hell do you get this 26 Ohm to 8 ohm bullshit??? It has nothing to do with the part I use or the test I ran. The thermistor I use starts out with 120 Ohms!! Youre just talking gibberish.

Craig

Craig,

I'm trying to be reasonable here too. Shawn didn't mention 26 ohms. What he did say is that with .5 amps going through the ICL ( 25% of the 2 amps rated current for the device) the resistance will drop from 120 ohms to 8 ohms (7.8 in the chart) in 120 seconds. So, yes, it does have something to do with what you use.

Bruce

I think your resistance goes up as you get heated. []

My resistance goes up to stubborn stupidity, vindictiveness and childish close minded behavior[]

Well I guess it may have some minor value to what is going on but still the 2 minutes has nothing to do with THE APPLICATION WERE DISCUSSING. The point that a 5AR4 starts making B+ is like 30 to 45 seconds not 2 minutes the entire process is over in a minute! Up until the point that the 5AR4 starts producing B+ only 15% of the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />ICL max current ability is being used. This is exactly why it works so well with a 5AR4.

People can through specs and technical talk around all they want but none of it changes the testing I did that is real world solid information.

I'm still waiting to hear what Tube rectified amp Shawn tested the actual device in to compare notes.................. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Craig

[Erik Mandaville]

Hi, Max:

With regard to my role in this play, you observed that "Erik is stiring the pot and pushing buttons but he too builds amps for others (if only for a hobby rather than as a career)."

Stirring the pot (which, by the way, I believe is spelled with two 'r's rather than one)[] or pushing buttons was not my intention. If you can point specifically to what I said here that has to do with those motivations, I would like the opportunity to clarify whatever might need clarifying. I was simply sharing a pair of monoblock amps from a builder for whom I have respect. I also recently posted the links to the online auctions of another person who does Dynaco rebuilds from scratch, and the same thing happened. BTW: I was also the person responsible for bringing up the most famous character of this thread -- the inrush current limiter. I will admit there were times when irritation got the best of me, such as my response to Craig's "cough cough bullshit" comment, but I have better things to do than push buttons. This pair of monoblocks is well done, and I thought some here might be interested in seeing them.

If you read all the pages of this thread, I think my responses have been less passionate (in a nasty sense) and certainly less rude than that of the opposition. Why is sharing a pair of well-made, reasonably-priced amps with other forum members pushing buttons? If presenting my own opinion or disagreeing with that of somebody else (which I have done without name-calling) is the same as 'stirring the pot' and/or 'pushing buttons', I submit we all plead guilty to the charge.

Yes, I have built a number of amplifiers and preamps for others, but you're correct in that it isn't my business. I do the work because I enjoy it.

Erik