Networks, next logical step?

[johnsji]

All,

I've setup my Forte II's in a small, ok really small, room. I haven't had a chance to set my modest system up in years but now I have this dungeon with a lock on the door and am looking for suggestions to help set it up for more critical listening again.

My scenario:

Room size: 9'5" x 8'10" x 8'

Components:

Forte II - 1990

Adcom GFA-535 Poweramp (any truth to web reports that this type of amp brings out flaws in Forte II's, ex. harshness?)

Adcom GTP-500 Tuner/Preamp

Sony DVP-NS50P/S DVD player (temporary situation)

Currently the best overall sound comes from placing the speakers at a 45 in each corner. The midrange is too loud as I get closer to looking down the horn. Pointing the speakers straight ahead also helps the issue but I seem to lose some soundstage, the image is a bit flat.

I've treated the room which cleaned the sound up considerably but I'd still like to improve it a bit more. I want to take baby steps...since the babies have been here, it is all I can take.

I went to the high end shop I bought the Adcom and Klipsch stuff from and told them my story. They said that the Adcom stuff was bright and I should sell the speakers and buy some Paradigm Studio 60's; at minimum, new speaker wire.

Estimating that I could sell the Forte II's for about $ 800.00, I would need about $ 800.00 more to buy his speakers. Wouldn't $ 800.00 go a long way towards choosing a better suited amp for my current speakers if brightness is the issue?

I mentioned to the salesman that the DVD player, which is temporary, did not sound as harsh when listening to movies or concert films , i.e. Eagles, Hell freezes over. I was told that inexpensive players are better for films than normal audio. I should at least investigate a stand alone CD player (my Pioneer Elite LaserDisc Player recently went bye-bye). Make any sense?

I looked into networks through this forum earlier in the year and reports have been positive. My fears are: breaking something that works to install them and will these changes address the issue as I've expressed it? I don't want to part with these speakers.

In the '80's to early '90s I was well versed in all this stereo stuff but by not using it, I've lost it. I need my advise in plain English.

If you were in this scenario and cash was an issue, what would be your next move? Please help if you can.

JJ

[DrWho]

So he tells you the adcoms are bright and he wants to sell you new

speakers? Sounds like the dealer is either an idiot or trying to pull

one over your head. The fortes should be anything but bright. Also, his

comment in regards to your dvd player seems bogus too...let me guess,

he wants you to buy a cd player from him too. []

Are you running the analog output from your DVD player? If so I can see

how the Sony might be causing you problems, but Sony makes some of my

favorite players when running the digital outputs.

If I were in your situation I would sell all your Adcom gear and use

those funds to purchase a Yamaha reciever, making sure that it comes

with the YPAO and analog pre-outs. Though EQ isn't the correct tool for

correcting room issues, it will certainly help. And the analog pre-outs

can be used later on down the road for connecting a seperate amplifier

as funds return and you want to step it up a notch (though I doubt

you'll feel the need to). Also, the reciever will have digital input

capability so you can run the digital signal from your dvd player into

the yamaha. This way you get the exact data from the cd going into your

reciever's DACs (which are rather good actually) and you won't have to

worry about finding a high quality CD/DVD player.

One other thing you should consider is some acoustical treatment. Is

this a dedicated listening room? You can get a very nice package of

acoustical foam for around $100 that would go a long way in improving

your acoustics. Most importantly you need to get some bass traps in

there and retrieve the low end that is getting sucked up by room modes

(which is what is making your system sound bright). Walk around the

room with bass heavy material playing and notice how drastically the

bass response changes, especially when standing in the corners. This

buildup of bass in the corners is causing cancellation at the listening

position so what you need to do is absorb the buildup so that the

cancellations don't occur. I bet you would notice huge improvements if

you were to simply install bass traps floor to cieling in your rear

corners.

I really feel the yammie reciever + room treatment is the best way to

go. You might try trading in your adcom stuff with your dealer in

exchange for the reciever, but I bet you'd get more money selling them

yourself and I suggest you find yourself a better dealer. The amplifier

to speaker relationship is a very complex one such that there is no one

single amplifier capable of making any speaker sound its best. You

obviously already love your fortes so now you just have to find an

amplifier that mates well with it. Btw, the Yamaha recievers also have

a very good phone stage on them as well - not sure if you're using a

turntable, but it's just one more reason to go with it. []

Before changing the networks in your fortes I would suggest working on

your room and amplification. There is a notable difference with new

crossovers, but you have much much larger concerns on your hands. What

is a +-1dB difference when you have +-20dB problems.

Btw, the 45 degree toe-in at the corners is a great place for your

fortes. I know it sounds bright, but you need to have those speakers

pointed right at your head. The second you get bass traps in there I

guarantee the brightness will go away and you'll have that great

soundstage back without the fatigue. Also, the controlled directivity

from the horns on your fortes will sound infinetly better than those

splashy Paradigms he wants you to purchase...yet another reason it seems

like he doesn't know what he's doing.

[johnsji]

DrWho,

Thanks for your response. I used to love going into that store and listen to the high quality stuff but when I left I told my 9 year-old son the guy I was talking to didn't make me feel comfortable...I felt like he was working me over. He asked me what I was going to do. I told him I was going to take my money and run.

To answer your questions/comments in order:

I am running the analog out from the CD player to Pre-Amp (I don't remember it having a digital in on the pre-amp...I'll look again).

I've heard Yamaha is good quality gear and I will look around to get some more specific information. Regardless of what I decide on, it sounds like the digital CD link is a must). Any model(s) you suggest?

This is a dedicated listening room, albiet small, and I have pretty much free reign with it. I've played a bit with DIY treatments using rigid fiberglass (Manville 814 (>125Hz) but the frequencies effected don't go down to to troublesome bass areas. While the treatments have helped considerably with echo and reflections it looks like I'll need to find another route regarding bass trapping.

When you speak of bass traps from floor-to-ceiling do you include the corners the speakers are in? If so, my question is how do I pull the speakers out far enough for the trapping effect without moving them too far from the wall (causing exaggerated mids/highs)?

I like the idea of the new networks but have hesitated for the same reasons you bring up and the other reasons mentioned in the initial post. One step at a time is what I have to keep telling myself.

If you come up with anything else let me know. Thanks again for your help.

JJ

[DrWho]

I'm not too up to date on the yammie recievers so hopefully someone

else will chime in. I believe there are other companies with the auto

EQ tools as well.

For acoustical treatment, you can get an 8pack of bass traps for $70:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Soundproofing-Foam-Acoustic-Bass-Absorbers-Traps-SP8_W0QQitemZ7366568768QQcategoryZ3278QQcmdZViewItem

They are the same thing as the auralex lenrd traps, but cost way less

(cuz you're getting factory price). Or you can purchase directly from

their website instead of ebay here:

http://www.foambymail.com/CornerSolutions.html

(you'll get the same product and performance from either and ebay is cheaper).

Btw, don't put the bass traps behind the speakers. The rear passive of

the forte will need the solid wall so that the sound will propogate to

the listening position. You will really need to walk around the room

and take note of the locations with heavy bass build up. This is where

the bass traps will need to go (which is generally in the corners).

Though the raw bass traps by themeselves won't go super low, you can

arrange them in different configurations so as to extend the LF

capabilities. Here's is just on way of doing that:

(and you can get a pair of those blocks for $20 off the second link at the bottom - where you will see the same picture again).

This will leave you with 2 more bass traps that you can put elsewhere

in the room...maybe in the middle of the front wall - cieling corner

and middle of the rear wall - cieling corner. The cool thing about the

bass traps is they also act as diffusors with the way their front face

is cut.

Before installing the bass traps I would remove any of the other

treatments you have employed already. The process is very much one of

trial and error so mounting the panels onto boards that you can hang

like pictures goes a long way in making it easier (both on you and your

walls). Another alternative is to use those big T-pins (basically just

a normal pin with a T-shaped head, that works vey well at holding foam

in place).

[Jay L]

keep the adcom. matter of fact keep it just like you got it.

[tofu]

wow.. that foam by mail stuff is cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Soundproofing-2-Acoustic-Studio-Wedge-Foam-SP-DEAL_W0QQitemZ7366498842QQcategoryZ3278QQcmdZViewItem

48 square feet of the 2" foams for only $44...

too bad they don't have a 24 square foot version. i don't need that much foam.

[michael hurd]

Tofu: yep, the foam by mail stuff is relatively inexpensive. ( even shipped to Canada ) You could also order a big package and split it with a forum member, like I am doing with my nephew.

[PrestonTom]

JJ,

First of all, enjoy your speakers.

My thoughts: Do not worry about speaker cable. The room you are in is smallish. I believe the biggest effects will come from experimenting with speaker location, placement (you already have gotten a good start) and room treatment.

Next is treating the room and others are giving good advice. However, I will add that part of the treatment can include things like an area rug (or not), or carpet pad (or not), or rearranging furniture, moving your chair away from a rear wall or decorative items on the wall. This is fun thing to tweak. It is best to get some good recordings and listening to them with different configurations. Do this to the point where you have various (revealing) passages fully memorized. You will be listening for the clarirty, imaging, the accuracy in reproduction in various instruments & voices, and whether you hear new things that were formerly hidden in the background. You need to get an accurate description of what aspects are good and which ones need improvement. It gets especially complicated when you then try to communicate this to others.

For the low frequencies, the solutions are more complicated. Certainly bass traps are a viable option. Although pulling the cabinets away (or toward) the rear and side walls should also be tried first. This will not eliminate standing waves but it may shift them either in frequency or location so it is not as bothersome.

As far as the Adcom amp. That is a good unit and can deliver lots of power and current (although this will be less of an issue in your case). These are good first steps (my opinion) and should be exhausted before you start swapping amps (you already have a good one) etc.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Bonzo]

Once again, the Doc is right on the money! I have Forte' II's hooked to a Yamaha RX-777 stereo receiver. Keep in mind I do have them in a larger room. This is an excellent combination! The Yammy has an adjustable loudness control that really helps taylor the low end. I have no mid-range harshness at all using an inexpensive 300 disc Sony changer. They key is to find a decent digital to analog converter or DAC. I found an Entec Number Cruncher 2.2 for a very good price and it works great! It's very small in size so you can put it anywhere. You just run an optical cable from the CD into the DAC then RCA's to the receiver. I am having networks built for the Forte's and should get them soon. I will let you know how they sound in comparison. You can generally find a 777 on ebay or audiogon for under $300.

[Deang]

You need some room treatment but you don't need to go ape sh!t. The best room treatment in a room like that is a pillow behind your head while you're listening.

Your problem isn't your amp it's your preamp -- you need to start there. Crossovers next.

[DrWho]

I just wanted to add that I have never had the chance to hear any Adcom

equipment. My suggestion to replace the old gear with a receiver was

based on the YPAO EQ and digital input capability. If you have the

funds you can always connect your Adcom amp to the preouts from your

Yammie...as far as I know you still get the benefits of the EQ and

you'll definetly enjoy the better DACs (which will make any source on

your dvd player sound good).

[johnsji]

Tom,

Thanks for the advice. I've toyed a bit with moving the speakers to try and get the effect you mention; shifting troublesome waves about room instead of leaving them caught directly behind the speakers. I'm going to remove the pegs to make the shifting around easier and act like a kid in a sandbox.

I'm also going to buy a dB meter on the way home from work to measure the frequencies of the room and overall sound pressure. Being a rocker I may be turning up the system up too much for this room considering its dimensions and the distance to the speakers. I've never had the pre-amp turned up over 1/3 in any room...maybe it's just too loud to control without extensive, expensive treatments (which is my fault, not the systems).

JJ

[johnsji]

DrWho,

Thanks for all the legwork.

I checked out the Yamaha line a bit and they have several units with the features you suggest. I found it interesting that their website discussed the similarities in the big-box store models and those in hi-fi shops.



"There are many similarities between these two product lines. The RX-V line and the HTR line are produced in the same Yamaha factory using high quality parts throughout. The RX-V and equivalent HTR models have the same warranty periods, the same manufacturer's suggested retail price, similar features, and similar remote control units.

There is a cosmetic difference found on the front panels of these two lines. However, both the RX-V line and the HTR line feature high quality front panel construction.

The amplifiers in the HTR and RX-V units are identical but rated differently to comply with the accepted measurement standards of their respective channels of distribution. Both ratings are FTC approved and are designed to handle the dynamics of today's audio and video sources. The RX-V line has the power amplifiers rated from 20-20000 Hz. The HTR line has the power amplifiers rated at 1000 Hz. Both lines can reproduce the full frequency response of 20-20000 Hz."

Maybe I'm a sucker but there must be more differences under-the-hood. Usually I am willing to pay a reasonable amount more to buy from a dealer vs. retailer for their upfront expertise and after the sale support.

Thanks again for your suggestions and your help.

JJ

[johnsji]

Dean,

I've seen longer posts from you but you always get your point across.

I'm not married to the Adcom, amp or pre-amp, although is was good gear when I bought it and is still pretty decent now. The speakers on the other hand...I can't help it but I'm hooked on the wow factor when people see these Klipsch especially since so many buy the little bitty baby sized boxes. When they hear them it is something else.

If the pre-amp is the problem you must know something I don't (that doesn't surprise me). I understand that the pre-amp feeds the amp but ok, give it up; if there is something specific about my pre-amp that is the problem let me know.

I don't have a budget now but I can't imagine what a decent replacement would cost (I just don't have enough knowledge to make a logical choice). Maybe I'd have to go used. My wife thinks an MP3 player for $150.00 is a stereo. Technically she is right but I'm looking for a bit more and it may be a hard sell. Suggestions are appreciated.

I still like the idea of the networks Dean and I've got your information and like the approach you describe. I'd like to get the best sound I can afford and then make the jump to them.

Thank you for your advice.

JJ

[Jeff Matthews]

John, I played my Crown Microtech 1200 with my Cornwalls for years in a room that was only 11x10x8. Little bigger than yours, but not much. The system always sounded great. I did not have to get picky about placement. I just stuck them on either side and directed them straight out - not at 45's. BTW, I did have them on some prox. 2 foot high stands I built for them.

My friend had an Adcom coupled with Chorus. I never liked the sound. I poo-pooed the Chorus, thinking them not too hot compared to my Corns. But I heard some talk about Fortes being so good.... So, maybe the Adcom isn't too great.

You can definitely play loud in small rooms. I'd try finding a friend with a different high-end amp and having him bring it over. Or you might get those Fortes into the air and see what happens.

[johnsji]

Thanks Jeff for your 2 cents.

I'm glad I'm getting so many different ideas to work with. I've been looking for another receiver or amp/pre-amp combo to play with but most folks I know have the theater-in-a-box type kits and I'm not sure how much quality I can count on for their nominal investment. On the other hand it still would be something different.

I tried an old Marantz receiver, I believe it was a 4400, and it drove me out of the room. With any volume the midrange was not only overwhelming, it was like the only frequencies it knew how to produce. In all fairness this thing has set in a box for 15+ years and was used for many before that.

Speaker placement appears to a main stickler. I have to be satisfied with the base image before I can proceed.

The forum has been very kind to me especially considering my lack of knowledge and modest system. I welcome the help along the way. Thanks All.

JJ

[DrWho]

My friend had an Adcom coupled with

Chorus. I never liked the sound. I poo-pooed the Chorus,

thinking them not too hot compared to my Corns. But I heard some

talk about Fortes being so good.... So, maybe the Adcom isn't too

great.

Comparisons really need to be conducted side by side so as to eliminate

all the other factors involved (electronics, source material, room

acoustics, speaker position, listener position, etc etc). I have gotten

to do this on two occasions - in my room and at colter's place; volume

matched both times using all sorts of amps and the chorus and cornwall

are 90% identical sounding. I had some "deaf" friends over and after a

while of switching back and forth they couldn't remember which one was

which. Of course each has its own strengths and weaknesses, but niether

is by any means "better" than the other (unless you start talking about

in relation to specific pieces of music). I've not heard the forte, but

I think its fair to say that it has a smaller sound that digs deeper

than the others...at least that's the impression that I get from direct

comparisons others have made between the forte versus cornwall and/or

chorus.

So John, what do you like about your system? There is something I call

"critical ears" where everything is going to sound bad due to your

mindset. Especially when mixing live concerts I try to remind myself to

enjoy the music and only "fix" things when there is something in the

way of that enjoyment. So just remember to take a few pauses and tell

yourself to stop worrying and drop in something that you really

enjoy....now if you're still unable to get sucked into the music then

we've got some major issues...but you might be surprised how good or

bad your system sounds based on your mood and whether or not you've got

your critical ears turned on. Also, it is good to remind yourself of

what you like so that you don't end up destroying it with the changes

you'll be making.

[johnsji]

DrWho,

Another good piece of advise and a learning experience also. As you suggest I could be looking for what isn't there instead of what is. I think we've all experienced this by selling the car we loved to buy one we thought we'd love.

To answer your question regarding what I like about my system:

Clarity

Separation

Width of sound stage

Well rounded sound for different types of music

Volume when needed

Volume when not needed

Already paid for

I started disliking the system as soon as I got a dedicated room. Maybe my critical ears started working then, maybe I expected too much. Adding treatments and worrying about the speaker toe-in to a 1/16" may have set me up for failure. In addition, this is a very tiny room to what I was used to...being on top of the speakers could be clouding my judgment.

All have recommended playing and tweaking and that is what I'm going to do before seriously thinking or dreaming of any new equipment, cables, etc. If past history tells me anything, if I'm not careful, I could sell off the car I loved again.

Thanks Dr.

[Duke Spinner]

All,

I've setup my Forte II's in a small, ok really small, room. ...... sell

the speakers and buy some Paradigm Studio 60's; at minimum, new speaker

wire.

NOOOOOOOO...!!!!! DON"T SELL YOUR FORTE' 2's

Salesman Bullshit...............

they , and the Chorus 2 ...are Fantastic speakers ....

too hard, up to close ...

buy a vintage Marantz reciever , 2240, 2250 ... you'll be ...estatic

'an, don't "Buy" into the Cable crap ....

[johnsji]

Duke,

Thanks for the advise. Most agree that setup not the speakers or equipment are the problem. Last night I stripped the equipment down to get it back to the condition I last heard it:

1. I removed the Monster banana clips and flex ends from the speaker wire.

2. I noticed the Monster cable (from a roll) that I use as speaker cable is sticky on the ends...it appears there are some problems with the wire as it has tinges of green. Since the cables were way too long for what I needed I hacked off two (2) feet from each end and stripped them back...still sticky. [:^)] The cable is twenty years old. I skipped the fancy ends and went direct to the pre-amp and speaker poles.

3. I changed out the newer cable between my DVD and pre-amp. I'd bought some cheap Acoustic Research cables (at the same time as the speaker ends) to replace the twenty year old ones...now I'm back to one of the twenty year old ones.

4. I left the MIT cable between the pre-amp and amp.

5. Removed the speaker pegs (I use three in a triangular shape).

I was on a mission and all was accomplished in twenty minutes.

I placed the speakers at the Klipsch 45 degree angle but to get an adequate image I was too close and I was not happy with the midrange. I changed the position from a true 45 to being toed in so they were about 1" and 7" from the back wall and as close to side wall as possible. I can move back into the room and this is my reference point for now.

DrWho has kindly provided advice to get me on the correct path. Until I can really identify what I like and don't like, I can't correct my listening experience. []

Maybe his critical hearing suggestion in some way helped manage my expectations. Last night the system did sound much better overall albeit some minor changes were made. I turned the light off, closed my eyes and spent a half hour listening, no experiencing, music again trying to pick out the various instruments and locations. She may not be perfect...but she's back. [8-|] Afterward I spent time watching the new Willie Wonka movie with the kids and was surprised at the sound stage presented throughout the film considering I'm only a two channel guy.

I think I'm on my way now and thank all who attempted to help me. I've got a good foundation and a plan to use materials to better treat my room (by the way, Dean's suggestion to use the pillow was a good one) without going overboard.

JJ