Duke Spinner Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Ya know ... Jimmy J .... my Bull$shit Threshlds kinda High.... And ... I Bite My Tounge ....ALOT this is your Second .."I hate it here" .... response I'm trying to think of a Polite way .... to ..tell you to .....kiss off .... ...........[:@][8o|]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Sorry, Jimmy J .... nothing polite comes to mind .... if you do not have Constructive Comments to add here ... why Bother ...........????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedball Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Baaaad Jimmeee Jaaaaaa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMcGoo Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Just ignore the somewhat obvious troll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Ya Know .... I spend a lotta time at the "other " Forum .... 'Cause I gotta lotta Those speakers........ there ain't that kinda Trollin' goin' on . a Pox on You J.J. ....[] See You on the "Other " Side ......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Dave, Check out the Sonoma DSD recorder. Up to 32 tracks at 2.8Mhz sample rate. http://www.superaudiocenter.com/Products.htm Oh yeah, runs on a pc (WinXP), and the 8 track kits costs $19.5K. I would love to have one of these systems. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted December 12, 2005 Share Posted December 12, 2005 Bruce, IMHO the best recordings are still done with 3 mikes through a tube based recording amp system to mag tape with below saturation VU levels. The mediums that the final recording is transfered to should, in theory, sound nearly identical. (Like listening to the same LP through different amps.) I like this CD player. It matches my TT!! Unfortunately I've been a bad boy this year, I'll be lucky to get a lump of coal.[:'(] Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 So what is jitter? Jitter is something that can ONLY happen during the digital to analog conversion...For the DAC to function properly, it needs to have a time source (a clock) and the recorded voltage that the analog waveform should have (the data stored on your CD). However, it is ridiculously difficult (pretty much impossible) to have them be seperate entities so the clock source for the DAC is the data itself. As the buffer outputs its digital signal to the DAC, there are sometimes very minor timing errors that can occur. The basic idea is that each bit isn't arriving to the DAC at precisely the same interval and therefore you have an inconsistant clock. It is in this stage and this stage alone that really determines the quality of any digital medium. How well can the device send the signal with a consistant clock. I mentioned a "clocklink" above (now, I don't really understand this, so some forgiveness, please).[:^)] Some players have what they call a master clock next to the DAC chips that sends a separate link back to the transport to control the disc speed and gives the DAC more accurate information on the timing of the signal from the transport. Does that sound somewhat right, and does it differ from what you describe? Larry Well there is more than one way to skin a cat. I was trying to present the simple approach that they taught us in one of my classes...where the only clock source was derived from the data signal. I have no doubt that there are better ways of doing it, but it's my understanding that this was one of the first methods? (and which is why the first CD players sounded like crap). Shawn is definetly more knowledgeable on the topic, but he took it to a different level than I was originally intending (nothing wrong with that I suppose). I don't pretend to have a full understanding of the entire system, but that's what my DSP course next semester is for [] I'm sure we'll go a lot more depth into the issue, especially considering that we will be writing our own alogorithms and building our own circuits. (I love writing alogorithms) Anyways, I still maintain that the data on the CD has no problems getting onto the buffer (where it acts just like the RAM in a computer). What you do with it after that point is a completely different issue [] And I should have reworded my jitter comment to read that jitter only presents/revales itself at the DAC (which is the sole result of timing issues). Sadly there isn't really anything we as the end-user can do about it other than to purchase better equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxg Posted December 13, 2005 Author Share Posted December 13, 2005 "Sadly there isn't really anything we as the end-user can do about it other than to purchase better equipment. " Well..........there's always vinyl... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 "I was trying to present the simple approach that they taught us in one of my classes...where the only clock source was derived from the data signal." Look up the specs for any PCM DAC you want and you will find they all have additional clocks associated with the digital data. Almost all of them will have a master clock, bit clock and a L/R word clock. On a couple of occasions I have seen DACs which don't have a master clock but they do have bit and L/R word clocks. "And I should have reworded my jitter comment to read that jitter only presents/revales itself at the DAC (which is the sole result of timing issues)." That isn't true. If you pass the data external to the player (such as the digital output on a transmitter) the digital transmitter chip (S/PDIF) is fed the *exact* same signals/clocks as the DAC is fed and they are fed in exactly in the same manor. If jitter causes the digital transmitter chip to misread a bit transition on the PCM data line then from that point on the data is *changed*. And jitter at the digital transmitter chip is what caused that change. From the digital receiver on the other end of the S/PDIF connection to the DAC could be *perfectly* free of jitter... but that doesn't matter... the data was altered earlier on because of jitter in the system. (Trust me on this... I've built digital tranmitters that pass DVD-A data at full bandwidth and have spent a lot of time working with this) Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Which begs the question....why isn't data transferred down S/PDIF the same way as say firewire or usb (I'm guessing it has to do with cost). Does the problem with the recieving device have to do with the fact that it's also using the clock source from the transmitter? I guess that's just one more reason to use a computer as the source driving a USB/Firewire interface for the DAC [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I tried to post this response to Marvel's post about the Sonoma recorder. There was an issue with the Forum where I could not even post to the "Anonymous" area. The Webmaster fixed it...So, belatedly, here is that response: Looks sweet...but like I said in the post earlier it is prices like these that keep those of us who want to record what the big guys won't out of such games...and possibly killing the medium at the same time. I haven't spent enough time with SACD to have an opinion of it as opposed to DVD-A...but as long as I can master DVD-A for the price of Steinberg Wavelab and similar I frankly don't care. As I know you recall, Marvel, I've become quite found of the CD medium (with proper engineering) over the past couple of years in spite of the inherent limitations, and 24/96 or 24/192 is truly awesome properly done and is accurate enough for all but the most finicky cat.Early there was discussion of SACD being "uncopyable." Horse hockey. I could make a copy with an Ampex 440 at 15 ips with Grandmaster and DBX the engineer probably couldn't detect. And that is pretty ancient technology. Even re-sampling the analog output of a first class recording would satisfy all but someone more interested in detecting the copy than the music. Lordy, we do get so caught up with it all sometimes...Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 "....why isn't data transferred down S/PDIF the same way as say firewire or usb (I'm guessing it has to do with cost)." That and that S/PDIF predates firewire or USB by many years. There is also the question of need... S/PDIF doesn't need the transfer rates of USB/Firewire or really the duplex connection. "Does the problem with the recieving device have to do with the fact that it's also using the clock source from the transmitter?" Which clock? The master clock running the transmitter is not the same clock source running the receiver. They are each internally generated in their respective components and may not even be running at the same frequency. "I guess that's just one more reason to use a computer as the source driving a USB/Firewire interface for the DAC" DAC still gets fed in the same manor. Downside of doing that is the potential for RFI noise from inside the computer making its way down the cable into the DAC. One of the advantages of toslink... no ground loops and RFI noise can't travel over the link. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 "So how do you make CD sound as good as vinyl?" I push the "PLAY" button on my Meridian.[] DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 "Downside of doing that is the potential for RFI noise from inside the computer making its way down the cable into the DAC. One of the advantages of toslink... no ground loops and RFI noise can't travel over the link. Shawn Arrghhh....this bugaboo contantly crops up. I have NEVER heard any evidence of such contamination from a computer and even a half-decent soundcard...an believe me, I've dealt with many, many such combinations. Go ahead and worry about RFI if you must, and fear alien abduction while your at it. This is NOT a flame, as anyone who reads my drivel knows that at minimum I am willing to listen and learn. But this is one thing that I will believe when I hear it or see it demonstrated...and even then I could fix it. Further, if you are coming from a hard drive, you are only dealing with the soundcard or external DAC clock which makes things much easier. I do not use TOSLINK, IEEE1394 (except for data and video), or anything exotic...plain ol RCA connectors of dubious origin. Theorize all you want about want terrible things could happen there, but all the bits and bytes seem to find their way to the right place at the right time and I've never had a "golden eared" visitor be able to detect so much as a hint of an issue. I've had more audiophiles, musicians and just plain music lovers listen to my own and other recordings through my own PC based systems, and not a soul has ever detected any RFI, jitter or anything that could be attributed to this. Again, I am not throwing down the gauntlet to anybody here, just relating my experiences. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlieboy Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 Mine is not as good as my TT but close at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 I am dang sure not going to show you mine... Enviously, Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 "I have NEVER heard any evidence of such contamination from a computer and even a half-decent soundcard...an believe me, I've dealt with many, many such combinations. " So? It doesn't change the fact that the possibility is there with any sort of copper connection between multiple devices. Spend time online and you will find hundreds of people wondering why their connection from their computer to the stereo equipment is humming or has other noise in it. Grounding and RFI are why. That is not to say that is always the case but it certainly does happen. An optical connection between the two devices has no ability to have ground loops or RFI on the interconnect. As far as what constitutes a 'halfway decent' soundcard you would have to quantify that. Read the measurements on some of them and they are *swamped* with noise and other grunge in them. Some can't even match vinyls dynamic range they are so bad. "Further, if you are coming from a hard drive, you are only dealing with the soundcard or external DAC clock which makes things much easier. " Incorrect. The S/PDIF transmitter in the soundcard (if you are feeding a DAC) has a master clock, L/R clock and bit clock feeding it to. That is simply how they work. If the transmitter is integrated into one 'mega' chip (which some are) that mega chip is still running off a master clock and the L/R clock and bit clock are generated internally in the 'mega' chip. The L/R and bit clocks *must* be there to be bi-phase encoded into the S/PDIF link. Without those clocks you simply can't have the audio data transfered as there is no reference point for bit transitions and where each word ends and for what word is for what channel. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 " Spend time online and you will find hundreds of people wondering why their connection from their computer to the stereo equipment is humming or has other noise in it. Grounding and RFI are why. That is not to say that is always the case but it certainly does happen. The S/PDIF transmitter in the soundcard (if you are feeding a DAC).... Shawn As to point one, I don't even have to spend time on line to know that their are millions of systems humming or with other noise in them, and that grounding and RFI are why. All can be fixed. It is not a PC issue nor any more difficult to deal with there than anywhere else. As to point two, I am not and do not. When I said "half decent soundcard" I meant something more like we'd suggest on the list as a "half decent CD player"...let's say a Rega Planet. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted December 13, 2005 Share Posted December 13, 2005 One of my PCs has an old crapblaster card in it. When playing back a CD, I can here noise while doing HD reads. But it is an awful card. The one I usually use for more serious audio work has an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 card. It has been slammed over and over, but has worked quite reliably and is always quiet. Plus, it sounds great. Recordings made with it are excellent. I just wish they weren't owned by Digidesign now. There are cheaper alternatives than Profools. Even with a toslink connection, you could have all kinds of noise in your signal before it goes out ove the cable. But Dave is right. You can fix those problems. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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