sfogg Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 According to that earlier link 115dB is dangerous to hearing within 30 seconds of exposure. 3 to 4 sounds frequently at beyond those levels isn't good. Those that can't 'take it' are likely those that aren't suffering from hearing loss already. "Now, with that said, I don't get that effect with the lower-powered amps, so I am surmising, I think correctly, that the "punches" in the lows and low mids come from vastly higher peaks than 39 watts. This was the whole thing about headroom and higher-powered amps." You have no idea what the peak levels are, you need to measure that too. Some CDs have basically no difference between peak and average levels. Use the procedure I outlined earlier to measure the peak possible levels. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Anyone even remotely serious about this hobby AT LEAST has a freaking Rat Shack SPL meter. You're starting to piss me off -- shell out the $60 so you can see what's going on with your system and hearing or quit starting these inane threads. + 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 1, 2006 Author Share Posted January 1, 2006 According to that earlier link 115dB is dangerous to hearing within 30 seconds of exposure. 3 to 4 sounds frequently at beyond those levels isn't good. Those that can't 'take it' are likely those that aren't suffering from hearing loss already. "Now, with that said, I don't get that effect with the lower-powered amps, so I am surmising, I think correctly, that the "punches" in the lows and low mids come from vastly higher peaks than 39 watts. This was the whole thing about headroom and higher-powered amps." You have no idea what the peak levels are, you need to measure that too. Some CDs have basically no difference between peak and average levels. Use the procedure I outlined earlier to measure the peak possible levels. Shawn I've never considered myself as serious into this hobby. I just bought some serious gear when I was about 18 years old (20 years ago), and I was content and never looked back or questioned. Now, I get interested 20 years later in KHorns and find this Forum. Now, it all goes to hell in a handbasket. I have all you gurus to thank for giving me all the education I could ever want. It is truly interesting. Okay, Shawn, are you saying the once and for all definitive test is a RatShack SPL meter for $30? If I do this, as cheap as I am, I don't want to hear any flack from anyone that the meter sucks, there's error, I need something else - you know what I mean. I'd as soon shell the $30 toward a downstairs amp than use it for a stinkin' meter... I am asking Shawn this, but Duke, Craig, Dean - all of you guys - do you agree with Shawn that this $30 meter is the one and only definitve last test, so that I can report to you, and you can then tell me all I want to know about this amplifier/headroom theory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Jeff, Hope it works for you to have a listening session with Craig LeMay. With his VRD's you are likely to find out if tubes will be a satisfactory experience for you. The VRD's have plenty of power to provide the bass dynamics for which you have an appreciation, I'd imagine. Also, it seems to me that Craig has a JM preamp of one sort of another. If he does, or any other tube preamp, it would be worth your time to see what your Crown sounds like with a tube pre. Very likely, it would be pleasing in it's results. You might find out that you are happy to keep your Crown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 "Dean, you are looking to supply me with some information that I am not after. Please don't get frustrated, but I'm not here to "brag" about SPL's I listen to." No, the thread was supposed to be about how to get you better sound and you turned it into another power/headroom thread. You should have been a lawyer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 1, 2006 Author Share Posted January 1, 2006 Jeff, Hope it works for you to have a listening session with Craig LeMay. With his VRD's you are likely to find out if tubes will be a satisfactory experience for you. The VRD's have plenty of power to provide the bass dynamics for which you have an appreciation, I'd imagine. Also, it seems to me that Craig has a JM preamp of one sort of another. If he does, or any other tube preamp, it would be worth your time to see what your Crown sounds like with a tube pre. Very likely, it would be pleasing in it's results. You might find out that you are happy to keep your Crown. Dee, I am definitely keepin the Crown. Ain't no reason at all to part with it. The options I have are (A) buy a new amp and put it downstairs for my downstairs listening, or ( buy a new amp for upstairs (where my Crown resides) and move the Crown downstairs. Hell, I'd be plenty happy with another Crown. But since everyone is talking 50-watt tubes, I want to understand this theory a bit. That goes for tube pre-amps, too! One thing you might comment to me on..... If you look at Stormin's posts on the previous page, you'll see that I noted some lost detail on the highs - where I could hear the detail on the Crown but not the Marantz. He said that was the trade-off. Smoothness of tubes makes the highs roll-off, and that's why tubes are smooth and not "earbleeders." Do you agree? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Dean, +1 again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 1, 2006 Author Share Posted January 1, 2006 "Dean, you are looking to supply me with some information that I am not after. Please don't get frustrated, but I'm not here to "brag" about SPL's I listen to." No, the thread was supposed to be about how to get you better sound and you turned it into another power/headroom thread. You should have been a lawyer. I am, Dean. But seriously, we all are in agreement that "better" differs from person to person. I didn't turn it into another power/headroom thread, it was there from the beginning. You made the suggestion to try a Peach pre. I'm cool with that - and you never know, you might see me with one. I know you saw that I looked at some Conrad Johnson's and commented about those - so you can tell I'm looking around, and your efforts are not in vain. Hang in there. I am sure you "know," but to teach is a bit slower. I simply am laying out the qualities in sound I like, and wondering about the ability of a tube amp to deliver it. If you look at my post to Dee, you'll see that an amp for downstairs may well be in my near future. I agree I just need to listen to these. It'll tell me what I need to know through hearing, although I might not understand a "lick" of anything as to the theory behind it. I'd rather know a little something about what I've got now, so that I can use it as a reference. That's why it is important for me to know how many out of those 310 watts per channel am I pushing. I was very surprised to hear that it was around 39 - and maybe somewhat less. That truly is a surpirse to me, except that I think (but am not clear) that this would be 30 or so average and that the peaks are much higher. This is where Shawn has stepped in and suggested an SPL meter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Well I just cranked up your song and if you can stand that song while your amp is pumping even 30 watts into your klipschorns then the case is indeed closed your pretty close to being completely deaf[] I used my $200 Fluke True RMS AC volt meters and with your song at my listening positition with my RS digital SPL meter I reached 114dB peaks and the highest registered VAC being fed to my Lascalas................... right around 12 RMS VAC my ears would not allow me to turn it up further. At 1 meter the Lascalas were blarring out 118+ dB. My amps were not even breakin a sweat. 12 X 12 = 144/8 = 18 watts what does the above mean??? Just about nothing because even my fairly high dollar test equipment can not measure what is happening accurately. The SPL meter can't really give us the true peak SPL. The MM can not give us the true RMS AC peaks and the impedence of the speaker is jumping all over the place so there is no accurate formula to figure the wattage used. My ears are ringing and I'm out of here. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Jeff, Do you remember any of your college math at all? Do you get the difference that the nature of the logarithmic nature of hearing and amplifying makes? like, it takes something like 10x more power to raise the SPL 3dB? That's why hundreds of watts get used up in a hurry raisiing the SPL a few dB. One of the other guys can quantify this better than I can. Really need the SPL meter to even discuss this stuff meaningfully. Need to come up with a sort of empirical baseline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 1, 2006 Author Share Posted January 1, 2006 Well I just cranked up your song and if you can stand that song while your amp is pumping even 30 watts into your klipschorns then the case is indeed closed your pretty close to being completely deaf[] I used my $200 Fluke True RMS AC volt meters and with your song at my listening positition with my RS digital SPL meter I reached 114dB peaks and the highest registered VAC being fed to my Lascalas................... right around 12 RMS VAC my ears would not allow me to turn it up further. At 1 meter the Lascalas were blarring out 118+ dB. My amps were not even breakin a sweat. 12 X 12 = 144/8 = 18 watts what does the above mean??? Just about nothing because even my fairly high dollar test equipment can not measure what is happening accurately. The SPL meter can't really give us the true peak SPL. The MM can not give us the true RMS AC peaks and the impedence of the speaker is jumping all over the place so there is no accurate formula to figure the wattage used. My ears are ringing and I'm out of here. Craig That's what I'm looking for! Thanks, Craig. What that means from here is that I need to call on Craig LeMay and check out his VRD's. I just could have never imagined 30 watts could do that. Thank you guys for opening up a new avenue. It's now time to listen for myself on somebody else's stuff. When I get hooked up with someone and can do that, I'll let you know what I think. I even intend on bringing my amp and pre-amp over to their place if they'll have it for an A/B test. I could have SWORN, too, that there were some other regulars on this forum in Houston who were running tubes through Klipsch. Anybody recall any names of people they think would welcome a drop-by and listen session? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Well I just cranked up your song and if you can stand that song while your amp is pumping even 30 watts into your klipschorns then the case is indeed closed your pretty close to being completely deaf[] I used my $200 Fluke True RMS AC volt meters and with your song at my listening positition with my RS digital SPL meter I reached 114dB peaks and the highest registered VAC being fed to my Lascalas................... right around 12 RMS VAC my ears would not allow me to turn it up further. At 1 meter the Lascalas were blarring out 118+ dB. My amps were not even breakin a sweat. 12 X 12 = 144/8 = 18 watts what does the above mean??? Just about nothing because even my fairly high dollar test equipment can not measure what is happening accurately. The SPL meter can't really give us the true peak SPL. The MM can not give us the true RMS AC peaks and the impedence of the speaker is jumping all over the place so there is no accurate formula to figure the wattage used. My ears are ringing and I'm out of here. Craig That's what I'm looking for! Thanks, Craig. What that means from here is that I need to call on Craig LeMay and check out his VRD's. I just could have never imagined 30 watts could do that. Thank you guys for opening up a new avenue. It's now time to listen for myself on somebody else's stuff. When I get hooked up with someone and can do that, I'll let you know what I think. I even intend on bringing my amp and pre-amp over to their place if they'll have it for an A/B test. I could have SWORN, too, that there were some other regulars on this forum in Houston who were running tubes through Klipsch. Anybody recall any names of people they think would welcome a drop-by and listen session? There are others! In fact there is another VRD owner not far from you also. Let me know if you want his email addy. I'll be curious to see what you come out of it thinking. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Jeff, One more thing I suspect your not even getting close to 30 watts unless your room is pretty huge. My listening position is near field so its hard to say. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 1, 2006 Author Share Posted January 1, 2006 Yeah, Craig, whatever list you could put together would be cool. Even cooler would be if you could clear in advance with them that I would like to hook up with them. It beats me calling out of the blue. Just for grins, I went back to the Marantz 2230 (30 watt/channel). It gets loud, and it sounds good. It seems the "power" of it kicks in when turned about 2/3 of the way up. At 1/2, it's nothing. I'd venture to say there's lots of clipping at 2/3 if the "amount of knob rotation to clipping ratio" (I know that's very crude) was like my old Marantz 1180DC. I used to clip the 1180 DC to death. I was 18 and didn't know any better. When I was younger, it was "if the lights don't stay solid, you're okay." Still, your comments after playing the tune on your system mean there MUST be something more to a 30-watt amp than just its 30-watts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev313 Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 Yeah, I'm a lawyer and could easily puke out the $60, but I kind of have a "cheapness" about me. If you've ever read "The Millionaire Next Door" (though I'm not a millionaire, yet), you'd see I'm like the millionaires who turned down Dom Perignon while saying "My favorite beer is any beer that's free." [] Craig, did you get the tune? Jeff, Would you rather be a deaf millionaire or a 999,9940-aire who can still hear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 1, 2006 Author Share Posted January 1, 2006 Jeff, One more thing I suspect your not even getting close to 30 watts unless your room is pretty huge. My listening position is near field so its hard to say. Craig And you may very well be right. The room's not that big. It's about 15 x 20. I listen nearfield, too. Typically, less than 2 meters. This whole process is one hell of a surprise to me. I'd have never ventured I'm running only about 30-watts at 1/2 up on my Crown. Where on Earth did the other 270 watts go? When you say "I suspect you're not even getting close to 30 watts...," are you saying my peaks aren't getting above that, either? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Matthews Posted January 1, 2006 Author Share Posted January 1, 2006 Yeah, I'm a lawyer and could easily puke out the $60, but I kind of have a "cheapness" about me. If you've ever read "The Millionaire Next Door" (though I'm not a millionaire, yet), you'd see I'm like the millionaires who turned down Dom Perignon while saying "My favorite beer is any beer that's free." [] Craig, did you get the tune? Jeff, Would you rather be a deaf millionaire or a 999,9940-aire who can still hear? Hey, I know it's loud. I think a $60 hearing test would be more definitive than a $60 SPL meter and some DIY hearing-loss science charts. I don't care about the SPL. I do care about my hearing. Nonetheless, I do crank it up for a few songs here and there. The best bet would be a hearing test to see whether the "3 or 4-song crank sessions" have caused damage. It wouldn't change my music preference, but it might make me chill out. On the other hand, I think my hearing's still good. I can definitely discern subtle nuances, both loud and not loud. A hearing test will be done sometime soon, and I'll let all of you know how deaf I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormin Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 The volume might be there with a tube amp or just about any ss amp but i doubt many tube amps or lower powered ss amps are going to control the woofers like jeff is accustom to. He likes the woofers pounding his mid section very hard. Most folks add a sub if they need the extra bass reinforcement without losing resolution of their system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mobley Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 8 pages in 6.5 hours, wow. that's intense even for around here. >> "amount of knob rotation to clipping ratio" this is where the logarithmic stuff comes in. the relationship of knob turn to power output is totally non-linear. 1/4 knob turn does not approach 1/4 of the amps max output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted January 1, 2006 Share Posted January 1, 2006 "Okay, Shawn, are you saying the once and for all definitive test is a RatShack SPL meter for $30?" Definitive for what? Average levels? Not at 120dB it won't be, it compresses and distorts up that high and I don't think the meters even read above 110 or 115dB. It can't do peak levels directly either. However, if you use the method I outlined earlier on then one can figure out max possible peak levels. But you apparently listen so loudly that meter won't be able to tell average levels for the same test so we won't know the difference between peak and average levels. If your measured numbers were way off from reality and the actual SPL is much lower then the meter could measure averages much easier. And using the procedure I outlined (which means you need a CD with test noise on it) then that can give you peak levels. " I'd as soon shell the $30 toward a downstairs amp than use it for a stinkin' meter... " Then don't purchase it. If your hearing isn't worth $30 to you don't buy it. Save the money for potential hearing aids instead. " do you agree with Shawn that this $30 meter is the one and only definitve last test," Where did Shawn ever say this was the only definitive last test? " I'd have never ventured I'm running only about 30-watts at 1/2 up on my Crown. Where on Earth did the other 270 watts go?" They never existed in the first place. The amp doesn't put out 300w just because you plugged it into the wall. It is likely class A/B amp... above a couple of watts it is basically class B and will pull power as needed from the wall. If you aren't using all its output power it isn't using that much current from the wall. The more power you put out the more current it draws from the wall. Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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