meagain Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 So... while taking a break at work, husband starts surfing the net regarding audio. Stumbles across some huge Dr. Edgar article which discussed Klipshorns, etc. - Has some big epiphany from it... And comes home declaring "the first watt is everything", "PWK said all the world needs is a good 5 watt amp", etc. etc, etc. Says we should ramp up our gear so our khorns sound good. Says we have to start with the cd player. Well duh! LOL [:S] So, the (great) seller who I'm buying the LaScalas & Scott 299b from had a Jolida JD-100 for sale. For the past 3 weeks or so, I've tried to convince hubby that this would be a safe investment and we'd get to see what a 'real' CD player would do. He's mostly poo-poo'd it cuz he wants all the music on a pc, etc. Our 4 year old $80 Toshiba isn't even catching the first 30 seconds of a CD anymore and can't do DVD-audio, etc. so due to reading the above article, tells me OK - see if the Jolida is still available. It was and he gave me a nice price & also throwing in some extra tubes. We'll probably get the $199 Oppo for DVD/DVD-A till the HD technology sorts itself out. I know some here have the Jolida so I'm pretty excited about it. I bought the Scott because the price was great, it's cosmetically nice with case, and I thought I could learn about tubes with it. I know it should be tweaked, and if I do, won't hook up the khorns to it till then. (right Dean?) Anyway, husband gets on the phone with his old audiophile pal who proceeds to suggest a Norh se9 tube amp. His friend said he listened to a $10-15k dollar amp compared to this and while it wasn't as good, this Norh was pretty darned nice. It's apparently only around $400 new. He told me to ask the forum if they had any opinions. I myself have never heard this name bantered about and only know it's inexpensive and made in Taiwan? I'm highly skeptical and don't think this is a financially prudent route to go. I think I'd rather buy well-known, desired, proven used gear (right Duke?) that will hold it's value in a such a way that I won't take a hit (or much of one) if I resell. Does anyone have any opinions on this unit to share with hubby? Or - would totally overhauling the Scott 299b be a wise thing to do? I'm not sure I'd even like the type of sound from it so it's gamble. We were thinking maybe we could buy a switch and toggle between the HK AVR for surround and the tube amp for 2-channel? The question "I" have, is if this Jolida CD player is hooked up to my HK AVR-435, will it negate any sound benefits the Jolida will give me? Like, will the AVR diminish some of the gains? I'm unclear how the chain of command works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Meagin, Please do not buy a $400 tube amp. Your Scott, gone through by NOS Valves, will blow it away (as in BLOW IT AWAY!!!!!!) and retain its value. Just do not buy a $400 tube amp. Based on your previous posts, the Scott's 20 to 25 wpc will not have enough power for you. Ask Craig if he can modify the Scott with a set of "preamp out RCA's" and "amp in RCA's." You can then add an active two way crossover for about $150. This will allow you to use a QSC 1202 200 wpc SS amp for your woofer (about $500 to $600 new) and the Scott's tube amp for the midrange and tweeter. You will need a passive two way crossover for your mid and tweet, but Bob Crites should be able to tell you how to mod your AA's. As far as the Jolida, these can be had for $600 and sometimes less on Audiogon. If your husband wants to use a PC server, consider a Benchmark DAC1. You can run a cheap Toshiba transport (like $60) for CD's (and DVD's) using an RCA line and the PC into the Benchmark using a Toshlink. I have an AH! player with all of the mods including exotic tubes (Amperex PQ's) and the Benchmark is very comperable. Greatly enhanced bass response and soundstage. These can be found on Audiogon all of the time. Chris PS - do not buy a $400 tube amp. The Scott wil blow it away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 5, 2006 Share Posted February 5, 2006 Oh yea, the HK AVR will not let the Jolida truely shine. Get a Peach. And don't forget, DO NOT BUY A $400 TUBE AMP. It will have tons of negative feedback, crappy transformers and cheap tubes. I was reading about DVD players last night. I have Toshibe 3950 as a transport and it seems to be widely recommended for this task. The HK DVD31 (or something like that) also seems to be widely recommended for about $225. Chris DON'T BUY A $400 TUBE AMP!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 Tiger - Do you mean the Scott won't have enough power in that I wouldn't be able to turn the khorns up loud? I'd have to be very careful with mods so I can sell it if I didn't like the sound. Not sure what you are saying with the active crossovers & such, but I'll work on trying to understand. The Benchmark seems to be $975. Yipes. I think we'll hold off on the music server for a while. I don't think the Toshiba DVD can do DVD-audio so I think it's down to the HK DVD31 or the Oppo. Perhaps the HK might just plain go better with my HK receiver. But that Oppo has ridiculously good reviews. You're certainly not the first person to recommend a Peach, but that's $1500 right there, and I'll still need an amp to hook it to. I think hooking a pre-amp to an integrated amp that already has a pre built in, is useless? Heck, I don't even really get the concept of a pre-amp, but it just seems a PITA to have to buy 2 units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Do you mean the Scott won't have enough power in that I wouldn't be able to turn the khorns up loud? I'd have to be very careful with mods so I can sell it if I didn't like the sound. I had a Scott LK-48 (Built by Craig - 20 wpc) and it had plenty of power for me. It went loud but did not rattle the house. I am suggesting that you mod it with pre-outs and ins (a "loop"). This mod will actually make the integrated amp more desirable because of the greater flexibility. I am essentially telling you to see if Craig can separate the preamp from the power amp by adding the loop. You can then just jump the loop with a set of RCA cables if you want to run the Scott as is. If you want to run multiple amps, then you will be able to do so. Not sure what you are saying with the active crossovers & such, but I'll work on trying to understand. This is easy. Run the output from teh Scott's preamp into an active crossover. This will divide the output at a selected frequency (you will use 400 hz). You can then run everything below 400 hz to a high powered SS amp and into the K Horn's woofer (this is where SS does very well - slam - ask Jeff Matthews). Everything above 400 hz can be ran into the Scott's tube amp section, then into a passive crossover (your type AA's - slightly modified) then out to the midrange and tweeter. The beauty of this is that you can do it in phases. First, get the Scott rebuilt. Use it with the pre-out loop jumped and drive your K Horns with it. Then, when you have about $650 to $750 burning a hole in your pocket, pick up a QSC 1202 and a two way active crossover and do the above. Then, if you decide to get a Peach, you can get one and run the QSC full range and sell the Scott for close to what you have in it and put your active crossover in storage. If you later decide that you miss tubes for the mids and highs, pick up a tube amp and dust off the active crossover. This is a nice clear upgrade path that can be done in stages. The Benchmark seems to be $975. Yipes. I think we'll hold off on the music server for a while. You do not need a Benchmark for a music server. But you will need a good soundcard (about $100 to $200) and it will never be as good as a Benchmark. Teh Benchmark will also replace your CD player because you can use a cheap DVD as a "transport" meaning it plays the CD and sends a digital stream to the Benchmark DAC. Benchmarks are available for less than $975. Check Audiogon. You can find them in the $700 to $800 range. You will be close to that with the Jolida and still need a soundcard for the PC. I don't think the Toshiba DVD can do DVD-audio so I think it's down to the HK DVD31 or the Oppo. Perhaps the HK might just plain go better with my HK receiver. But that Oppo has ridiculously good reviews. Don't know much about the Oppo or the HK 31. Just heard the HK was good. A forum member had a Philips DVD 963 SA for sale for $225. That's a fair price. I think that I paid $225 for a mint one. I have one and it is outstanding. I added a $25 Blackgate capacitor to the power supply and it tunred this into one sweet player at an outstanding price. Harshness dissappeared and bass response improved dramatically over my old Denon CD player. This was a $600 DVD player a year ago. Chris Robonson recomended it to me and said that it came close to his upsampled AH! player. If you need a DVD player you really should get this one. I don't know how much the Jolida is going to cost you, but $600 is normal on Audiogon and they occasionally go for less. They are $900 new. Get the Philips DVD SA 963 anyway if you are in the market for a DVD player. With the blackgate mod it is a great player for the money. You're certainly not the first person to recommend a Peach, but that's $1500 right there, and I'll still need an amp to hook it to. I think hooking a pre-amp to an integrated amp that already has a pre built in, is useless? Heck, I don't even really get the concept of a pre-amp, but it just seems a PITA to have to buy 2 units. You don't need two units. The Scott is one unit because it is an integrated amp (I am suggesting that you add a loop to make it essentially "two" units). But you need a tuner to listen to FM (Guess you need three units if you get a Peach! I have 6 units, Tuner, preamp, active crossover and 3 amps). A preamp "prepares" the signal for the power amp. You can get a Peach later if you want. I said to get a Peach because you wanted detail. You can wait. I did not buy a Peach for a long time. If you don't need an HT bypass or LoZ mode, get a Merlin at $600. This is an awesome deal. It only has two inputs. I bought a DBX 400 route selector for $40 on ebay. This will allow several inputs if desired. Look at the route that I suggested above. You can just buy the Philips DVD player and get the Scott rebuilt now. If it does not have enough bass, pick up a used subwoofer (your in Chicago - follow the classifieds and Craigslist). Then add the QSC amp and active crossover and you will have tons of slam and the sweet tube sound. If this still is not enough, add a Merlin or Peach later. Then you can upgrade your source to a higher end CD player because you will now have a Preamp that is trasnparent enough that the higer end CD player will be warranted. If you then want more clarity in the mids and highs, add an SET tube amp for big $$ or a Teac L700P (or other digital amp) for small $$. This is a clear route that can be done in stages and will be very satisfying. By the way, the PC servers are cool. I am building one right now (600 gig hard drive and 2 gigs of RAM!!) Good luck, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Now listen to me very carefully... if the Scott 299 is not loud enough for you then I suggest you go get your hearing checked. I am using one (mine is only 17wpc) with my La Scala's and sit 12 feet away away from them. Listening to Chicago V I had the volume set to 6, and it was reading over 100 db on my SPL meter with 110 db peaks. There was still 4 more clicks on the volume. Not sure if you know how loud that is, but it's enough for me sometimes to have to leave the room. And oh by the way, it's clear as a bell. One other nice thing you can do with the 299 is use the Derived Center Channel as an output channel for your subwoofer. You just run an RCA jack into your sub amp (if it's a passive sub) and control the gain with the volume on the sub amp. I use this feature with my La Scala's and it makes a nice difference on the bottom end. Let Craig go thru yours and do his magic. It is worth every penny! Plus, you will have an outstanding phono stage to go with it if you're thinking of getting into vinyl. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 I have heard the nOrh SE9 amp on my big ole horns and it is "blah" sounding amp... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 TigerwoodKhorns, Thanks SO much for your well thought out and explained answer...there are some here (ME!!!) that need the tutorial when it comes to this stuff or at least the refresher course and I think I just took that class with your answer! Thanks again and thanks Meagain for asking this (you are just DETERMINED to get me to buy tubes now aren't you...[][] ) Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 TigerwoodKhorns, Thanks SO much for your well thought out and explained answer... Bill Yea! No kidding! It's so intense for newbie me that I will need to read it 10 times to even begin to respond in any semblance of intelligent manner or to merely formulate a question out of it. LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Mike, I agree that the 17 wpc is plenty loud. I never turned my Scott integarted past 5. However, I am under the impression that Meagin wants house-shaking bass. That is not going to happen with 17 wpc. That will take a very powerful amp for the woofer, good corners, and probably an EQ to boost the bass (or a DBX 120 subharmonic synthesizer - these are nice!). Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted February 6, 2006 Author Share Posted February 6, 2006 I can't see doing this re-wireing thing hooking up the woofers to one amp and the rest to another, etc. Then getting new crossovers or some gadget on top of all that to make it work? I think in that case, I'd just stick with my HK receiver for 2-channel. What is this HT bypass or LoZ mode in the peach? I don't understand this HT bypass thing. Why would that be necessary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Hi Mark, Do you have this same feature on the BB X? It doesn't appear so from what I have read. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted February 6, 2006 Share Posted February 6, 2006 Good enough... it's not that big of a deal, but would have been nice to not have to go thru the wire switching when going from one to the other. Plus, it would have been nice to drive the fronts with the VRD's in HT mode. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny dB Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 The nOrh amps are made in Thailand... just as I was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 Baby steps Lisa, baby steps. Chris is trying to take you into the land of the lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 7, 2006 Share Posted February 7, 2006 No land of the lost Dean. Quite the opposite, a very clear path with no unnecessary purchases. I want her to get the Scott rebuilt, but have a loop added between the pre and power amp. I also think that because she is in the market for a DVD player, the Philips is outstanding for the money. Then chill out for a while and just listen. But we all know that she will not be happy with the bass response, so I also think she should add a subwoofer. The Scott cenetr channel makes hookup a breeze. She can then chill out for a long while. If she then wants more, she can easily switch to bi-amp, retaining tubes for top and and add SS QSC for bottom end. If she still wants more, she can add a Peach and still use the QSC. If she misses tubes, she can then add tubes for the top end later. She can also add a better CD player, but she can still use the Philips DVD because she needs to buy a DVD player anyway. Jeeze Dean, I make a living advising people. I think that this is a rational, easy, step by step plan with a clear goal in sight at all times instead of wild swings and impulse purchases. The only item that she will ever sell (if she chooses to do so) is the Scott and we all know that she will get her money back out of it. OK - I'm not really insulted but I do think that this is very good advice and a clear definate upgrade path without a merry go round of purchases. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted February 8, 2006 Author Share Posted February 8, 2006 mdeneen - Thanks for the detailed explaination of the Peach. I could see where that feature would be valuable. Tiger - The Phillips won't work for me cuz it doesn't do DVD-audio properly (near as I can tell). We have some discs and it would be nice to have. Why again would I be unhappy with the bass? If I hooked up the Scott? The bass on the khorns made me the happiest (though I'm currently/temporarily missing something right now). It was the rest of it I have problems with. I think if the Scott chills out my bass - I won't go with it. It would make better sense to me to get a proper amp than rigging up a sub because something took my bass away? I wouldn't want to add anything that will diminish/weaken the bass. (I'll have to read your posts again on this cuz I might have it wrong). What up with this QSC? Why is it good? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 Tiger - The Phillips won't work for me cuz it doesn't do DVD-audio properly (near as I can tell). We have some discs and it would be nice to have. What doesn't it do? Its a great CD player and was pretty pricy when new. I know it plays DVD's because I have watched movies on it before. Its audio section is also excellant. Not sure what you mean. This all really should not matter because you bought the Jolida so don't worry about it. Why again would I be unhappy with the bass? If I hooked up the Scott? The bass on the khorns made me the happiest (though I'm currently/temporarily missing something right now). It was the rest of it I have problems with. I think if the Scott chills out my bass - I won't go with it. It would make better sense to me to get a proper amp than rigging up a sub because something took my bass away? I wouldn't want to add anything that will diminish/weaken the bass. (I'll have to read your posts again on this cuz I might have it wrong). You will not get house shaking bass from the Scott. However, it is a great sweet sounding tube amp. I used mine and picked up a Klipsch SW15 from the newspaper. It shakes the rafters if that is what you want. It also sounded really nice with the Scott when dialed in properly. Remember your laboring over the initial decision to get K Horns? Seems silly now doesn't it? Just have Craig go through the Scott, it is a great amp and you can always get your money back out. It is a great way to experience tubes with horns. It will sound great with the Jolida. Did you ever get your crossovers rebuilt? What up with this QSC? Why is it good? Uh oh - uh, got to go! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 I'ze just ribbing you a little Chris, but I don't like the idea of biamping using passive filters. I do agree with you about getting the Scott rebuilt, and I told her the same thing. Naturally, a Peach purchase gets her just about the best sound there is without too much additional fuss -- and the sound will be great no matter what amp she uses (well, within reason). A QSC PLX series amplifier coupled with a Peach is a very good sound -- no question about it. Meagain, the PLX series of amplifiers utilize switching power supplies -- the sound is very clean and dynamic. Shoot, might as well go for broke -- Peach and VRDs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted February 8, 2006 Share Posted February 8, 2006 IShoot, might as well go for broke -- Peach and VRDs. I like this thinking. [] This is what I'm going to have shortly. VRD's should be shipping out any day now, and will be ordering the BlueBerry Xtreme tomorrow after I meet with my tax guy. I have just heard so many great reviews on this combination that I can hardly wait. Mike PS. Dean, I am going to PM you a question in regards to running a Sub with the BB X. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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