K-HORNS & SUB

[jcmusic]

Can someone help me? where is a good starting point for a 10in. sub to blend in with k-horns?

A little guidence please.

[TheSoundBroker]

To match a sub with K-Horns you need two things...enormous output and a fast, low distortion design. Fact is, K-Horns have prodigious output down to a solid 35hz and to match a sub with them requires something that can keep up without compressing. The list of subs that can do justice to K-Horns and truly give you a +10db number over their operating range is mighty small indeed. Look at the size speaker you are trying to match it to! A 10" sub is just going to get lost and will likely do more harm than good (unless it is a 10" sub in a MONSTEROUS horn enclosure). I'd suggest waiting and saving for something that can actually match up well to the mighty beasts.

[TheEAR]

SoundBroker is correct,with speakers as capable and efortless as the K-Horns you at least need a sub capable of very deep bass. For this I would look at at the very least one Klipsch THX sub with the matching amp.This would be the Klipsch route,you can start with one sub and after add a second passive unit.

A subs using a 10" woofer is all but not capable keeping up,you could look at the SVS 10ISD,can dig deep.But it will be great a low to medium volumes.One SVS Ultra or a pair of these would do a great job,both capable down deep and having serious output.

Mains as large and efficient as the K-Horns require a matching sub and this = a very large unit.

There was a member here using a Sunfire Signature with K-Horns to a great effect,if memory serves me well.But the "tiny" Sunfire will cost ya and two would be a better match for the K-Horns .

[Chris Robinson]

There was a member here using a Sunfire Signature with K-Horns to a great effect,if memory serves me well.But the "tiny" Sunfire will cost ya and two would be a better match for the K-Horns .

That would be Edster ... down in Atlanta. I think he's relocating to the southwest though.

I pinged him on this a while ago and he said he was very pleased with the Sunfire Signature and I think his ear is pretty good. Again, that's a $1750+ sub.

I've just gone through this exercise myself. Call me crazy, but the Danley DTS-20 seems to be the best match for the Klipschorns in a big room. At 7-1/2 feet tall, that seems intuitive. My wife is going to pass out when they wheel that crate into the family room.

Chris

[PrestonTom]

I guess that I am a bit of a traditionalist.

K-Horns don't need a sub.

The very, very low frequencies are not there in much music. It is also unlikely that you will get bass that is as clean as that from a K-Horn.

If you are not listening to music, but using them for HT effects, then a sub might be appropriate for that sort of "experience".

-Tom

[Jay481985]

Remember that the Klipschorns have a 15 inch woofer already.... So you should start with atleast a very capable 12 inch sub. I think when they release the new RT-12 it should hold it's own

[psg]

I disagree somewhat with some is what is said.

The fact that the Klipschorn has powerful bass on it's own could mean

it needs less of a sub rather than more. I bought a Hsu STF-3 (12

inch, ported) to complement La Scala's. I ran the La Scala's

full-range and sent everything lower than 60 or 80 Hz to the sub as

well, with pleasing results on music.

When I got the Klipschorns, I did the same thing except that I use the

40 Hz cut-off on my receiver instead of 60 or 80 Hz. So the sub

handles much less content on music that it did when it supplemented La

Scala's, and what comes out is even better. I dare say on most

content I could switch the sub off and not notice.

My room isn't huge, but I've never clipped the sub yet.

[DrWho]

The very, very low frequencies are not there in much music.

Well about 80% of the music I've measured happens to have sub 35Hz material (even old stuff) and about 40% of it has sub 20Hz material...And yes, I'm talking music - not movies. Formica started a thread a while back where a bunch of waterfall plots were posted.

I'd also argue that the khorn isn't very good below say 45Hz either and being hornloaded it has an extremely fast drop off too. All the measurements taken of khorns include corner gain, so it's not like there is any reason for the performance to improve depending on the room...

Nevertheless, no 10" sub on the market will be able to keep up. Distortion is pretty much a function of cone excursion and power input to the device - I don't have the numbers on me right now, but a 10" sub would have to move pretty far to reproduce a 20Hz note @ 100dB. (I wanna say 1" peak to peak). The woofers in the khorn will need to move maybe a few millimeters - so you can imagine how much extra distortion the 10" driver will provide.

...And it doesn't really matter if you crossover the sub really low. For any frequency, a driver must displace a specified amount of air for a given SPL. The amount of displaced air simply decreases as the driver gets smaller and as the excursion is less. In other words, it is no harder for a sub to reproduce 20-40Hz than it is for that sub to reproduce 20-80Hz (higher frequencies require less excursion). The reason it probably sounds better with a low crossover is because the khorn is outperforming in the 40-80Hz region....and the reason it's barely noticeable when the sub is turned off is because it simply can't keep up at the lower frequencies (just like it can't keep up at the easier to do higher frequencies).

[IndyKlipschFan]

For 95% of music no need with K horns..

For HT yes you will need it..

In my experience, either the Klipsch THX subs or what I use now the RSW 15 is a great match!!

All movies are recorded differently which sometimes sucks on your setup..DD/DTS But it is usually just a "smidge" up or down after correct placement.. Bottom line is, you need a fast sub and one that goes lower than the K horn. And will play loud at pretty good SPL's, Because you WILL turn it up, trust me.

[oscarsear]

I believe that Colin a well respected member and audiophile employs and ACI Titan sub woofer with his gear. Again $1,200 +/ unit but a good bang for the buck because ACI does sell manufacturer direct. My Khorns are plenty fine w/o sub augmentation.

[rcarlton]

I'm considering a SVS PB12-Plus/2 for HT use with my khorns. Currently have a KSW-150. Can't even tell it's on...way too small for my listening room.

[TheEAR]

Matching K-Horns with the right sub is above all in what you listen to,most often these huge speakers will cover it all(or close)and most will not even notice the sub.

I see a subwoofer as a must in a these cases...

1. K-Horns used as mains in a very large HT first room where the owner wants the shake factor.

2. Owner listens to pipe organ music and wants to hear and above all feel the deepest notes.

3. Owner is a bass fanatic and must hear/feel it all.

And here no small subs match the large efficient K-Horns too well,as smaller subs all will have to work in overtime to keep up where the K-Horns have a minor workout.And this = distortion from the sub. All of the smaller subs(read all not just most)fail to meet,high output below 20Hz.

To be a perfect match a sub would have to keep distortion levels at a minimum all this while being capable of at least 120dB with no room gain,at listening position(*2.5-5m from the speakers).And be linear from 16-40Hz from the lowest output to 120dB.And have a headroom of 6dB while mainaining the distortion low.

This crosses the Sunfire Sig out,as well as any compact sub.

A DIY sub using dual Tumults and four PR's like the Everest would be a good choice,with the proper amp.Parametric EQ is a big helper to dial the sub,too many systems I hear the subs overpower or intrude when they should extend and free a portion of the deeper bass from the speakers.

Horn loaded subs are simply to damn huge to be practical in all but the most insane audiophile homes.

[TheSoundBroker]

The Ear is absolutely correct. K-horns are an inherently low distortion design because they have such a huge dynamic range (120 db). Putting a smaller sub with them is bound to induce distortion in the low and mid bass ranges and you are bound to get a visit from an angry PWK Ghost [6]. K-Horn owners know that effortless, low distortion sound that is the entire reason for buying and living with such an enormous beast. To put something with them that will lessen this experience by distorting and compressing is just not a good idea. If you've had a high output, low distortion sub with K-Horns that is capable of the output that does them justice, you'll know exactly of what we are speaking of. The Danley DTS-20 Tapped Horn Sub comes immediately to mind...and it has a planform that makes it fairly easy to fit into a lot of spaces comfortably. They also have a smaller version that I'm trying to find out how much output it has in-room to see if it might be a good match. Besides which...if you have room space that is large enough to support a set of the beasts from Hope...you should have enough space to put a sub that does them justice.

[Q-Man]

The Danley DTS-20 sub has my attention. I had to call them and ask them some questions. I've been thinking of a different sub for some time now, ever since I blew the driver on my Sunfire Signature.

I still use a Signature with my Klipschorn theater. The room is 17' by 50'. The Signature does find in the room up to about 96db. 96 to100db. on the sound level meter in this room is taxing the sub. I have to be careful and turn the sub down when I push the sound level over 100 db. That is where the Klipschorns can keep on going and the sub is at it's peek.

[sfogg]

Q-Man,

"I have to be careful and turn the sub down when I push tthe sound level

over 100 db in the room. That is where the Klipschorns keep on going

and the sub is at it's peek."

Does your processor have a 'Bass Peak Limiter' or something similiar?

They can be very handy if it does, you might want to give it a try.

They will keep you from blowing subs. You basically set a limit for how

loud the sub will play and then the processor will keep it from going

beyond that point. For less capable subs they can be a lifesaver...

literally.

BTW... Danley *knows* bass. I've had one of his units for nearly 10

years now. I have no doubt the DTS-20 is a monster, love to hear it

sometime.

Shawn

[Jay481985]

A DIY sub using dual Tumults and four PR's like the Everest would be a good choice,with the proper amp.Parametric EQ is a big helper to dial the sub,too many systems I hear the subs overpower or intrude when they should extend and free a portion of the deeper bass from the speakers.

two tumult 15d2 with four stryke pr 18" 1600 gram with two adire ada1200 amps

2X2X5 net interior ~16 cubic feet

123 db anechoic from 16hertz not equalized yet

[TheEAR]

A DIY sub using dual Tumults and four PR's like the Everest would be a good choice,with the proper amp.Parametric EQ is a big helper to dial the sub,too many systems I hear the subs overpower or intrude when they should extend and free a portion of the deeper bass from the speakers.

two tumult 15d2 with four stryke pr 18" 1600 gram with two adire ada1200 amps

2X2X5 net interior ~16 cubic feet

123 db anechoic from 16hertz not equalized yet

This fits the ideal K-Horn sub description. The only pain,the shipping,at 400lbs these monsters will cost a bit in shipping.But once you have mains the size and weight of the K-Horns class this is a formality. []

[Jay481985]

oh no the everest is 20.5X20.5X48 which is gross 10 cubic feet. My design is a derivation but bigger since the new tumults need bigger boxes to be equal to the old.

BTW Kyle Richardson is not planning on continuing making the everest. Not much buying, lots of interests but its like the Mercedes S65 on the lot, lots of lookers no takers. Also I think my design will be around 500 pounds... If I trim it which means complicated honeycomb design to reduce wall thickness but retain strength means alot more time

And my design is internally amplified unlike the everest which needs to be externally amplified

[Chris Robinson]

Horn loaded subs are simply to damn huge to be practical in all but the most insane audiophile homes.

It's comments like these that are really going to convince my wife that I should be committed to the Funny Farm []

Seriously, though, when you have a top-line Heritage system of Klipschorns, Belles, Cornwalls and Heresies, why not fill up an empty corner of the room with a "damn huge" sub?

Actually, the Danley's footprint is smaller than an SVS Plus or Ultra. In my case, since we're redoing the room anyway, we'll just frame in a corner box for the Danley. The only thing that will say "speaker" is the tiny grill or port near the floor. Then again, the less informed might think it's an AC duct or something.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just insane (seriously). A few years ago, I was just thrilled with my Bose Acoustimass 5 system. Our tastes just change sometimes []

Chris

[Q-Man]

Like Chris said, it does have a normal footprint standing up right. You can also lay this sub on it's side behind a sofa. It has potential.

When you have a Klipschorn theater, you don't have any corners left over to put a sub in. The Danley is powerful enough to place just about anywhere.