Kriton Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Ok, I have had the unique opportunity to A/B a couple of pair of Heresy 2's, one pair is stock (albeit beat-up) 1985s, and the other is a pair of 2006 brand new H2's. Given that the speakers have a 20 years difference, I didn't expect them to sound *so* different. SO my question is this...the 85's sounded dull and there was a lot more noise in the sound; is this a direct result of the old crossovers? Can older caps actually introduce noise into the sound? The 85's were muddy and just not clear...the 06's were clear as a bell...is the crossover the difference? I will tell you that the tweeter diaphragms on the 85's have been replaced with new BEC diaphragms within the last month due to my receiving the speakers with blown tweeters. Does anyone have a diagram of a refreshed H2 crossover, with cap values and any suggested mods? I also have some franken speaker H1.5's with k-77M tweeters but with an E-2 network on a wooden board, does any one have any upgrade plans for these? Thanks in advance... K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddy Dee Posted March 6, 2006 Share Posted March 6, 2006 Kriton, I think there are two issues at work for the "difference". Old caps become resistive and that does kludge up the sound. Fresh caps would resolve that. The other issue, changes in crossover design, could also account for some difference, but not nearly so much as caps drifted off spec. IMO. Major congrats on the new HII's. Sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Dee, thanks for the response. Why did I think that an H2 was an H2? I guess I just figured that the H2 crossover stayed the same, pretty naive of me...I really don't want to bust these things open, but I guess I need to just to figure out the differences... The 85's 2's just sound like crap, very interesting comparison let me tell you. I would like to try to refresh the crossovers myself but I don't know if I am up to that quite yet... K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 The only way into an H2 is by removing the woofer. That cabinet is all glued together. The crossover is mounted to the input cup. You may not have the same drivers in both of those. There was a bit of a transition between the original and the HII. Do your '85s have the round input cup on the back? Mine are '89, and I like the way they are, but the only comparison I have is to some original Heresys. Big difference in sound to me on that front. I actually like mine better. To me they are smoother. Both are great speakers IMO. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted March 7, 2006 Author Share Posted March 7, 2006 Marvel, The 85's have the round cup, the new H2's have a square cup...larger crossover perhaps? Interesting...I need to pop it to find out, the curiosity is killing me. I also have a pair of H1's that I will use to AB with once I ahve them refinished...they sounded fine when I go them, so I am curious as to how each sound when sitting next to one another .. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 7, 2006 Share Posted March 7, 2006 The crossovers are the same in function. One has cheap parts and the other has inexpensive parts. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnyholiday Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 Thanks for the picts Bob, saves me from having to pop this thing. Those caps look mighty small...Do you think it would be a noticeable change at this point to upgrade the caps on the 2006 H2? Thanks again, K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Can't really answer that because I haven't seen which caps got the low bid on the 2006 models. I can say both the ones I show above could have benefited from a cap change when new. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 The most obvious change to the H2 network would be replace the electrolytic with something better. The other capacitors are metallized film and IMHO much better than the paper in oil motor caps used in the older Heresys. You could replace them with polypropylene caps, or whatever "audiophile" caps you like. Values should be printed on the current ones. Same comments apply to E2. You could also replace the iron core inductor with an air core one, but I don't think it will make much different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Malcolm, I have never found a paper in oil cap in any of the Klipsch crossovers. Some may have been PIO in the 50s and 60s, but by the 70s, I think all the metal can type were film and foil in oil. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 OK, what is the general concensus on caps? Auricap, Sonicap, what? I just need to find capacitors that have the same values? I really wanted to try and do the old H1 crossovers (labeled E-2) myself, they look pretty simple, actually very simple - the only caps on them are the square upright stadning things, I think. I have years ago done some circuit board work, putting together hexidecimal projects in college... Should I replace the other components (I think autoformers or coils) too? Do some AF's work better with some caps, and vice versa? I think I remember someone saying (maybe you Bob) that the AF's didn't go bad, not to worry about them? Thanks, K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Kriton, If I were doing them, I would just change out all the caps with good polypropylene caps. Dayton or Solen would be fine. For the woofer cap, just a cheap non-polorized cap will be fine. Here are what I would use. You can go to partsexpress.com and search for these part numbers. 027-412 027-356 Bob Crites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 The only way into an H2 is by removing the woofer. That cabinet is all glued together. Actually, on mine the back is attached with screws. My crossover is mounted on the round cap, and some caps don't have anything printed on them. I guess I'd have to pop in a completely new crossover if I wanted to refresh them (which would ironiccaly cost more than I paid for the speaker, but what the heck). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 The caps in all the Heresys I have had up through the mid seventies or so were all originally PIO, just about every make, and every voltage between 50V and 200V. The later E and all the E2 networks had metallized film of some sort. FWIW I replaced all the caps in my Heresys with Solen metallized polypropelene caps. As to "any" nonpolarized cap, I don't think going to a nonpolarized electrolytic for the woofer cap would be a good idea. Even if there is no initial sonic difference with a better cap, electrolytics have a nasty habit of degrading significantly over time. Really no reason to replace the autotransformer. If it is the same T2A used in many of the other Heritage series, you can try ALK's version. It has additional taps that give you more options for balancing the levels of the woofer, squawker and tweeter. The coils appear to be air core wound on a plastic bobbin. There is really no reason to replace them. If you go to a coil with larger wire but the same value, you will wind up reducing the resistance and possibly changing the sound a bit because you altered the relative signal levels going to the woofer, tweeter and squawker. But it won't "improve" the sound per se. If the coils were iron core, replacing them with air core would at least be a theoretical improvement in terms of hysteresis and saturation. OTHO I don't think it woild yield an audible result in the case of Heresy or Heresy II. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 Interesting! I thought all H1's were screw in backs, and H2's were glued too. I learn something new every day. Thanks for the values Bob, I appreciate the information. OK, so I souldn't touch the coils, how bout the formers? K Does anyone have any pictures of modded H2 or H1 (especially) refreshed crossovers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Just the caps. The other stuff does not wear out. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Malcolm, Where would you put a polypropylene woofer cap on the tiny Heresy II crossover? A 68 uF polypropylene cap is huge, almost as big as that little crossover. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Peter, My bad. The HIIs with the round input cap were those in transition. I hadn't thought that the backs were screw on for those. Are the woofers mounted on the back of the motorboard then, or still front mounted like the later HIIs (like mine)? Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriton Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 Hey Bob, the three caps on my crossover are: Two square caps which are 2.0uf -+ 5% / 250 VAC connected to the T2A AF, and a round can cap in the woofer with a value of 100V 33uf...does this sound right to you? I just need to find caps of the those values, correct? THis is an E-2 H1 crossover...so the H2 crossovers have a 68uf caps in the woofer circuit? What is that about? Thanks, K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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