Khorn low frequency capability

[NOSValves]

I am guessing that could be the problem. The bass is amazing down to the 50Hz level. Mine are in a 20x27x9 room, along the short wall due to HT seating setup.

I am also using some false corners I made. The corners are tight and very heavy due to the method I used for construction. I will have to make some more detailed testing before I start messing with things. I also need to accurately (?) measure the frequency response in the 30Hz range to see if the problem is due to room problems.

Take the room out of the equation and test at 1 meter from the speaker. Seems to me this would tell you if its the room or something else.

Craig

[3dzapper]

Those are not bad numbers Rudy. 10Db down from the average at 31.5Hz. (Excluding the peak centered at5K) The numbers are even better when the correction for the RSmeter are added:

At 10Hz add 20dBs to the meter's readings and at ...

12Hz add 16.5dB
16Hz add 11.5dB
20Hz add 7.5dB
25Hz add 5dB
31.5Hz add 3dB
40Hz add 2.5dB
50Hz add 1.5dB
63Hz add 1.5dB
80Hz add 1.5dB
100Hz add 2dB
125Hz add .5dB

Rick

[Deang]

How are you feeling Rick?

[3dzapper]

Great Dean, thanks.

Rick

[chops]

Let's get the flame-throwers lit. I listen to a lot of well-recorded pipe organ music. I have demonstrated to all who have visited my home that the K-Horn has output at low C (CCCC) of an open Principal 32'. The last octave of this rank is c.16-32Hz. So how do we know the K-H has output at this low frequency? You lean your head back and rest it on the sheetrock! It is unmistakable. This is a valid test because you cannot hear 16Hz-- you FEEL it in your chest and abdomen.

A good recording to experience this is The Great Organ at Methuen (TELARC: CD-80049) Listen to selection 3, "Passacaglia and Fugue in c minor".

I have never felt the need for a sub with K-H.

DRBILL

I too listen to a lot of pipe organ music and know exactly what you're talking about, however I can't help but feel that the K-horns (or any other loudspeaker for that matter) could and would greatly benefit from a properly placed and tuned subwoofer.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, any loudspeaker will benefit from using a subwoofer, both for two channel and multi-channel playback.

[JJkizak]

I could hear down to just barely 39hz without the sub. With the sub I could plainly hear 19hz with the sub set for 80 hz top. The sub also helped to balance out room nodes. I read somewhere it is best to avoid the 17 ft dimension in you listening room as it raises hell with acoustics. I believe it was some famous acoustics book but not by PWK.

JJK

[boom3]

I trust that folks who are using the RS meter are doing so with the correction curve supplied by Rives Audio et al.

I have heard the same effect that DRBILL has mentioned, and it is impressive. However, I must point out that organ pipes are part of a musical instrument, and are not pure sine wave oscillators. When we listen to any 64 Hz pipe (which the lowest in all but a few installations) are we hearing the fundamental, or mainly harmonics? We hear a mixture. We also know that corner speakers excite all the room eigentones, so all room resonances are in play. I notice this with a "mere" set of four Corns, one in each CORNer.

Still, I want 4 Khorns someday...

[chops]

When we listen to any 64 Hz pipe (which the lowest in all but a few installations) are we hearing the fundamental, or mainly harmonics?

I'm not trying to argue, but...

Almost any pipe organ that even has a stopped 8' stop as its largest pipe (which plays the same as a 16' open stop) will be producing a frequency of 32Hz. Even most small antifinal pipe organs (small pipe organs of a few ranks remotely controlled by the mian pipe organ's console) have at least one stopped 8' rank which is clearly capable of 32Hz.

64Hz is typical of Low C on the manuals, that is if that low C is played by an 8' open pipe or stopped 4' pipe.

Even our own 19 rank residence pipe organ ( http://chops.tzo.com/page5.htm ) has two 16' flue stops and on 16' reed stop in the pedal. Also, one of the 16' flue stops is on the swell manual as well.

To answer your question,I think it is the fundamental frequency mostly that you hear. And I would be willing to say that most likely 90% of the pipe organ installations in the world are capable of at least 32Hz, not 64Hz. []

[djk]

Dolby labs (Benjamin and Fielder) did a paper many years ago (1980) on subwoofer performance.

They concluded that there werent any home subwoofers (at that time) which could produce audible 20Hz, without audible distortion.

Because of the hearing sensitivity curve, one finds that at the threshold of hearing, at 20Hz, that a 3rd harmonic of only 7% has an EQUAL subjective loudness as the fundamental at 20Hz.

From JAES Volume 48, Number 10, fig.10 and 11, we see that at 13V the current Klipschorn has -8dB (39.8%) 2nd harmonic, and -20dB (10%) 3rd harmonic at 20hz. At 30hz it is -15dB (17.8%) 2nd harmonic, and -12.5dB ( 23.7%) 3rd harmonic.

This is why a Klipschorn 'sounds' like it has bass.

[boom3]

.

When we listen to any 64 Hz pipe (which the lowest in all but a few installations) are we hearing the fundamental, or mainly harmonics?

I'm not trying to argue, but...

Almost any pipe organ that even has a stopped 8' stop as its largest pipe (which plays the same as a 16' open stop) will be producing a frequency of 32Hz. Even most small antifinal pipe organs (small pipe organs of a few ranks remotely controlled by the mian pipe organ's console) have at least one stopped 8' rank which is clearly capable of 32Hz.

64Hz is typical of Low C on the manuals, that is if that low C is played by an 8' open pipe or stopped 4' pipe.

Even our own 19 rank residence pipe organ ( http://chops.tzo.com/page5.htm ) has two 16' flue stops and on 16' reed stop in the pedal. Also, one of the 16' flue stops is on the swell manual as well.

To answer your question,I think it is the fundamental frequency mostly that you hear. And I would be willing to say that most likely 90% of the pipe organ installations in the world are capable of at least 32Hz, not 64Hz. []

That I did not know, thanks for the info. I always thought that the deepest organ bass came from "sub-beats" between pipes.

[chops]

.

When we listen to any 64 Hz pipe (which the lowest in all but a few installations) are we hearing the fundamental, or mainly harmonics?

I'm not trying to argue, but...

Almost any pipe organ that even has a stopped 8' stop as its largest pipe (which plays the same as a 16' open stop) will be producing a frequency of 32Hz. Even most small antifinal pipe organs (small pipe organs of a few ranks remotely controlled by the mian pipe organ's console) have at least one stopped 8' rank which is clearly capable of 32Hz.

64Hz is typical of Low C on the manuals, that is if that low C is played by an 8' open pipe or stopped 4' pipe.

Even our own 19 rank residence pipe organ ( http://chops.tzo.com/page5.htm ) has two 16' flue stops and on 16' reed stop in the pedal. Also, one of the 16' flue stops is on the swell manual as well.

To answer your question,I think it is the fundamental frequency mostly that you hear. And I would be willing to say that most likely 90% of the pipe organ installations in the world are capable of at least 32Hz, not 64Hz. []

That I did not know, thanks for the info. I always thought that the deepest organ bass came from "sub-beats" between pipes.

No problem. In fact, a few pipe organs have either a stopped 32' or open 64' pipe that can produce 16Hz all day long. This can also be down with two stopped 16' pipes playing in 5th's together. The "sub-beats" of those two 5th notes creates a 16Hz tone, which we can do on our own pipe organ.

[DRBILL]

I trust that folks who are using the RS meter are doing so with the correction curve supplied by Rives Audio et al.

I have heard the same effect that DRBILL has mentioned, and it is impressive. However, I must point out that organ pipes are part of a musical instrument, and are not pure sine wave oscillators. When we listen to any 64 Hz pipe (which the lowest in all but a few installations) are we hearing the fundamental, or mainly harmonics? We hear a mixture. We also know that corner speakers excite all the room eigentones, so all room resonances are in play. I notice this with a "mere" set of four Corns, one in each CORNer.

Still, I want 4 Khorns someday...

Actually the frequency of open organ pipes is (and these are rounded) at low "C" :

32' pipe 16 hz

16' pipe 32 hz

8' pipe 64 hz

Very few organs are built without 16' ranks. The only ones I know are portable and used for continuo.

DRBILL

[chops]

As DRBILL stated above, (and I was wrong in my last post right above his), those are for open stops.

If those were stopped ranks, it would be:

32' stopped pipe 8Hz

16' stopped pipe 16Hz

8' stopped pipe 32Hz

There are 64' open pipes out there that produce 8Hz! Such organs as the ones in the Atlantic City Convention Hall and Sydney Town Hall in Australia.