Framing lumber and frame type for basement room

[damonrpayne]

Should I seek a certain type of wood for framing my room, treated or un treated? I have egress windows in the basement I can open during construction. Shoudl I go with 16" or 12" centers, any acoustical benefits either way?

Also, for the purposes of making sure there is no moisture build up, the building inspector recommended I keep the studs for my long wall that would go over the outside blocks about 1" away from the wall, not touching. Is this worth doing?

[colterphoto1]

Damon, sorry to tell you, but if you need to ask questions like this, HIRE A CONTRACTOR, but not the idiots who built your home. There are literally dozens of little tricks to doing a good job of a basement remodel and you won't know any of them. (I don't mean to demean ya dude, okay). How to box in ductwork and beams, wiring tricks, which direction to hang drywall, how to frame so drywall lands on studs, mudding and quick drying mud, electrical box locations and electrical code. How to build and stand walls quickly and easily, keeping them plumb and secure. How to treat openings for windows and doors. Insulation, floor coverings, HVAC.

Unless you are versed in all of these, don't lower the resale value of your home by doing a DIY job of this. It deserves to be of the same quality as the rest of the house. I know a lot of the guys have done this type of work themselves, but my guess is that they were pretty well versed in the trades or had someone nearby advising them every step of the way. Perhaps you have bro in law who's a contractor- great- buy beer. Otherwise, please put the hammer down.

To answer your question, use treated for the sill plate (floor), cut shallow notches in the bottom side of it to allow water flow should any get through there. Walls are standard studs. Yes keep it away from wall, particularly so insulation does not contact the block walls.

Personally, I'd wait ONE YEAR to check for cracks in foundation and any water problems before sealing it up.

Remember I'm the guy who told you to RUN AWAY from your builder before the first shovel of dirt was lifted, you were still in the planning stages.

Take suggestions or not, its up to you.

Michael

[damonrpayne]

Part of me thinks you are right,

Part of me thinks I should do this to GET more familiar,

Part of me realizes that I will be spending 5-10 times more money on the room if I have to pay contractors to do all of it. There goes my equipment budget. I have no way of knowing if the contractor I hire is going to know these tricks either. I also don't think I can go another year plus construction time without a home theater. Keep in mind that due to how long it took those jokers to finish my house my basement has already sat and breathed for almost a year. Given all this, I think I want to do some of it myself ( I have to hire an electrician) and bother you guys every step of the way...

[colterphoto1]

I understand your mistrust of contractors, are there some neighbors or family you could count on for good referrals? Do you have a local company who 'watchdogs' for good vendors?

Again, I caution you Damon. Would you allow a carpenter to take on one of your web page projects?

Michael

[TheSoundBroker]

I can address the stud spacing from the wall and water vapor question...

I run another business besides my home theater company...mold remediation and prevention for new and existing construction. Spacing the studs away from the wall will help...but only to a limited extent. What is important is the management of water vapor inside the wall. If you live in an area that has a lot of moisture or a high water table, your best bet is to seal the concrete before you do construction. If you close in the concrete wall and it happens to shed a lot of vapor inside (which it will), there will be mold. It is more likely to be a problem in the drywall and insulation, which both have lots of tasty paper products...but the studs would be effected either way. Spacing the studs away from the surface will cut way down on the wicking effect...but eventually the water WILL penetrate as the wood absorbs the vapor. One other issue is that the concrete needs to be cured before a coating will work properly. The space needs to be heated and it will take at least a month for this to happen

To seal the concrete, there is only one thing I've found that WORKS and keeps working and is pretty DIY friendly. You can also use a preventative anti-mold construction coating for the wood and other materials. PM or e-mail me for more info.

[formica]

From the CMHC site... http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/renoho/refash/refash_024.cfm

"

Foundation walls

To prevent heat loss to the

surrounding earth, most jurisdictions require exterior basement walls

to be insulated for most of their height. Although builders usually

place the insulation on the inside face of the foundation wall and

cover it with gypsum board, it would be better to place water-resistant

insulation on the exterior face where it can keep the foundation warm.

If the wall is warm, the dew point, the point at which air vapour

condenses as water, occurs on the exterior of the foundation wall where

condensation will do no harm.

When insulating the foundation on

the inside, you should expect some moisture to condense on the inside

face of the foundation wall. Place a moisture barrier, such as

vapour-permeable building paper, on the interior face of the foundation

from exterior grade to the bottom of the wall to prevent this moisture

from wetting the insulation. The top of the wall and the space between

the joists should be insulated, because it is here that most of the

basement heat loss occurs. Cover the warm face of the insulation with a

polyethylene vapour retarder and seal with caulking where the

polyethylene meets the floor, walls and ceiling, and at all laps to

prevent moisture from getting into the wall. Consult the building code

for your jurisdiction for your basement insulation requirements."

and in another document

"Interior

insulation can be used.This can be done when finishing the basement by

using batt insulation in the stud cavities or by installing extruded

polystyrene and strapping on the face of the perimeter walls. If the

basement won't be finished, install rolls of polyethylene-encapsulated

fibreglass over the wall.The advantages of interior installation are

cost and ease of construction.The disadvantages of interior

installations are:

The basement walls are now at the

temperature of the soil or the outside.Any moist air moving through the

wall from the inside will condense on the wall.

Usually there

is a moisture barrier against the foundation wall and a vapour retarder

on the room side of the insulation. As a result, the wall has poor

drying potential.

Never apply interior insulation to a basement with moisture problems. Fix the moisture entry problems before insulating."

And a study which tested several construction methods we find here...

BASEMENT WALLS THAT DRY QUICKLY

[damonrpayne]

Thanks for the advice.

On a whim, I asked the guy who just built my deck what it'd take to frame out my basement room, he seems to think it'd be very cheap, only $300 in labor or so. For that price, its not worth my time. We'll see what he says when he sees the plans.

[colterphoto1]

When we did basements, we always stood the drywall on end since they were usually 8' or less. That way you're taping all 'tapered' seams along the edges of the drywall. (house building convention is to hang the sheets horizontally so unless you have huge sheets there are some 'butt' seams which are a pain to mud.

Anyway, with regards to framing- if whoever is drywalling wants to use this method, you have to be extremely careful framing so that the studs fall EXACTLY 48" on center. It must be exact because it's hell trimming the edges of the sheet 1/2" because your stud layout was incorrect.

We would build the walls flat on the floor, a bit short of what was required, then cut thick shims to slam into the top, holding the wall securely plumb and in place, then nail to floor joists with the nail gun and 16d nails. Much easier and secure than trying to toenail the studs and build the walls in place.

Do you have ductwork to box in? I have a technique that works well for that also.

Try to always think ahead to the next step and try to avoid problems there, especially when dealing with multiple contractors- I guess that would be my best advice.

Damon, I'll try to chime in here with positive advice, k?

[colterphoto1]

Is that deck guy a framing carpenter or just deck builder? If you do decide to go with contractors, I'd caution you to get several bids and make an informed choice between them. Cheapest will not be best in most cases. You might be inviting problems early on. Yes a skilled team can frame an entire basement in a few days. I'd think $300 is way too low.

[damonrpayne]

I do have 1 duct and 1 horizontal beam to frame in.

This guy supposedly does more basements than decks. He is going to meet me on site, and I'll see what he says when he's actually seen what he has to do.

[colterphoto1]

we framed in obstructions by nailing a 2x2 next to say the duct work, then suspending 3/4 plywood down from that (solid section) that extends 2" lower than obstruction, then nailing 2x4's flat (parallel to ground) between the two plywood sections. This makes a very solid box to drywall. Trying to box them in with small stud sections is always a mess. You want it very solid so the mud doesn't crack and nothing vibrates.

Also might double tape up the ducts and maybe pack some insulation around them. Always insulate drain waste pipes (the p@@p chute) because people flushing upstairs makes quite a racket going through the ceiling or basement wall sections.

Maybe see if he'll sub out the framing, drywall and finishing. that way you have one guy with responsibility for all that work, then sub the HVAC, electrical etc yourself.

M

[picky]

Damon: I used standard, kiln-dried white studs for all wall construction. For sole plates and anything contacting the basement floor, I used only pressure-treated lumber. Saw that stuff out-of-doors! Everything was 16" OC.

[Klipschfoot]

16" standard OC studs is recommended. There is no gain in using 12" OC framing and insulation comes 16" wide. You will just spend more money and time and there is no sonic enhancement. If you plan on staying there long, use drywall screws instead of nails so you don't have to worry about "nail pops." 5/8" drywall on the ceiling is fire protection and sound absorption in conjunction with good insulation between floors. THE trickiest part will be your choice of surface treatment. Paint will make the walls reflective. Unless you want to leave drywall untreated to deaden the room, you will need to consider what kind of paint (or other) you will be using. (I painted our basement with satin finish and it was a mistake.) Frankly, just studs and craft backed insulation will give you a terrific "dead" room. Use the clap test after the frame & insulation phase and then the finished phase and you will know what I mean. I hope it turns out well.

[Speedball]

Should I seek a certain type of wood for framing my room, treated or un treated? I have egress windows in the basement I can open during construction. Shoudl I go with 16" or 12" centers, any acoustical benefits either way?

Also, for the purposes of making sure there is no moisture build up, the building inspector recommended I keep the studs for my long wall that would go over the outside blocks about 1" away from the wall, not touching. Is this worth doing?

I agree with using treated for the bottom plates.

Should be sufficent with 16" O.C. & the screws are a good idea too.

Be sure to insulate for sound.

Good luck, .......have fun with the project.

[colterphoto1]

I'll just adding here. Use what you want.

You can get 'finger jointed' studs which are as strong and straighter than standard lumber, they grow the trees too fast nowadays.

Keep the studs away from the block 1/2", insulation should NOT touch the block. You might consider gluing drywall to studs, at least in corners where subs or Khorns may reside. Keeps down on vibration. Screws are a good idea too. Remember to keep drywall off the floor, there is ALWAYS moisture on basement floors, if not through leaks, through the floor itself. Your drywall will soak up moisture like an old gym sock, so keep it off the floor.

I always applied PL200 glue under the sill plate (bottom of wall), then used .22 impact driver to attach spikes through to floor.

Good advice on the 5/8 firewall on ceiling. It's not only thicker, but has fibrousy material in it- feels much denser than standard and might cut down on some noise transmission. I hope you're investigated 'resilient channel' for your ceiling drywall.

There's more to it than most people think. Just keep collecting these tips. I don't think anyone would post anything here that they wouldn't do to their own homes.

[fini]

Being a carpenter, I'd say you're getting great advice here. Michael, can you imagine the two of us on the same job?? What's Damon's address?

The only disagreement I have is with running the drywall vertical. Yes, you can do it either way, but it's stronger run perpendicular to the studs, and drywall finishers hide their butts all day ;^) What's the length of your longest wall, Damon? If access permits, 12' sheets will minimize (or eliminate) vertical joints. If it were me, I would sub-out the drywall. The professionals are SUPER fast, and WAY better than amateurs. Save yourself for the fun (non-back-breaking) work.

[Gilbert]

Damon, sorry to tell you, but if you need to ask questions like this, HIRE A CONTRACTOR, but not the idiots who built your home

No, you do not ask and never ever rely on a contractor for this information. You ask a seasoned Architect or Struct. Engr. This is not to disrespect Contractors, there are some very very good ones out there. But the odds are heavily stacked against you in finding one, there are far to many idiots and fly-by-night contractors in this business.

From what I'm reading, it appears as if the structural part is over, because your earth retaining structure, or basement wall is already constructed. Moisture protection should have already been applied on the outside, before the wall was backfilled. If not, you are very likely screwed, especially if drainage provisions were not provided for and/or you live some place other than the desert.

If the walls are mearly for finishing or hiding a nasty looking concrete or cmu retaining wall. Then 24"oc is a typical spacing for this type of construction. It doesn't sound like your walls will be load bearing, but if they are, email me. Treated wood is not required and you don't want to mess with it, unless it's being placed in a moister rich environmet, or if the lumber is being placed directly against a concrete surface. A sill plate is the only piece of treated wood you will use. For simple furring, or finishing, just go with Grade 3 studs. DO NOT BUY GREEN LUMBER.

The type of lumber available to you is area specific. But if you have SPF or Southern Pine, that's what I'd go with. DO NOT SKIMP ON YOUR HEADERS. Depending on wall thinkness, use either dbl 2x12 or triple 2x12 sandwiched with plywood as required to match you stud width. Provide no less than 3 studs (king & jack studs combined) at either side of the opening to support the header. This will give your walls a solid feel. These header sizes are based on std. opening widths in the home (i.e. up to 6'-0"). Anything wider than that, email me.

If you need a go-by Arch. detail, I can provide that to you in a pdf, but I will need to know some specifics about your project.

If you have any questions, email me duphas@cox.net, but be patient on my reply.

[Klipschfoot]

"DO NOT SKIMP ON YOUR HEADERS. Depending on wall thinkness, use either dbl 2x12 or triple 2x12 sandwiched with plywood as required to match you stud width. Provide no less than 3 studs (king & jack studs combined) at either side of the opening to support the header. This will give your walls a solid feel."

Gilbert: Then why use 24" oc? I know you can use 24 oc with 2x6 studs but why chintz on wall framing but overbuild the headers? If you are using solid core doors, overbuilding headers might be a good idea to decrease slamming vibration but if your walls flex, the work is wasted. Just wondering.

[TheSoundBroker]

Moisture protection should have already been applied on the outside, before the wall was backfilled.

Don't assume that this is either done or done correctly. I deal with a lot of new construction in my area where the spaces are wet...even with moisture protection supposedly applied. In practice it sounds easy, but doing it right is not as common as it sounds. It is just a lot safer and cheaper in the long run to properly seal the concrete inside before you close it up and build a cavity with lots of wood products next to a potentially wet surface. Trust me, this is how I get lots of business.

[Gilbert]

Don't assume that this is either done or done correctly. I deal with a lot of new construction in my area where the spaces are wet...even with moisture protection supposedly applied. In practice it sounds easy, but doing it right is not as common as it sounds. It is just a lot safer and cheaper in the long run to properly seal the concrete inside before you close it up and build a cavity with lots of wood products next to a potentially wet surface. Trust me, this is how I get lots of business.

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If there are no signs of moisture intrusion, and the wall has been erected for a year or more, then assumption and engineering judgment is all you have to go by. The next best thing would be to uncover an isolated portion of the wall and verify that a moisture barrier has been applied

However, if someone is trying to push a product or create business for himself, (and I know Arch's that will stoop this low), then selling fear together with that product are the way to go. But if this is not the case, and you are genuinely concerned about any potential problems, then why not 1^st recommend to the owner, that he get a contractor to bring a shovel and unearth a portion of subject wall to verify your assumption that it was applied wrong. That should be a whole lot cheaper than specifying a Band-Aid.

If a wall has evidence of moisture penetration, and the only thing that is specified for the fix is a product applied to the inside face, then there has been no fix prescribed to address the real problem. And the real problem is a structural issue, not one of interior finishing.

There should be no reason to seal the inside face of a retaining wall. That is pure BS and unnecessary added cost. It does NOTHING to enhance the durability to the structure, which is a hell of lot more critical than the room finish. I may have missed something in the previous posts, but I don't remember anything being said about moisture having been detected on the inside face of the wall. Asphaltic mastic compound (one of the most common water proofing methods used for this type of construction) is easy to apply. IT'S A NO BRAINER. I've seen it done countless times.

If your seeing moisture problems with your below grade walls, then your either spec'ing a bad and difficult to use product, or you are consistently working with some really stupid contractors, and I doubt the latter is the case. Anything more costly than a plastic sheathing (just for a warm fuzzy) between the studs and the inside face of wall is money down the toilet.

I recently designed an 18,000 sf 3 story addition to a fraternity house at OSU. A relatively small project, but it was a stick framed and a good example to explain my point. The addition, like the original 1923 structure, has 14 ft BG retaining walls. One of the walls is adjacent the parking lot, so ASSHTO surcharge applied. Before I did my design, I inspected the frat-house from top to bottom. My inspection required that many of the existing perimeters 2x finish walls in the basement be torn down. There was not one sign of moisture penetration, 83 years after being constructed. And yes, the wall had shrinkage cracks, so I assumed that 83 years ago, someone applied a moisture preventative backing at the outside face. There was no sealer of any kind, or anywhere throughout the entire inside face of existing structure.

The Arch. I worked with on this project spec'd no moisture barrier at the inside face of wall for either the new or existing portions construction. Why, because it simply is not necessary. That Arch. has over 40yrs experience, is cognizant of the moisture related issues inherent with underground structures, and is also a Fraternity brother of that organization. So I don't think he would ever want to have a bad Rep with the fraternity, but then again, that is only an assumption.