Framing lumber and frame type for basement room

[Gilbert]

"DO NOT SKIMP ON YOUR HEADERS. Depending on wall thinkness, use either dbl 2x12 or triple 2x12 sandwiched with plywood as required to match you stud width. Provide no less than 3 studs (king & jack studs combined) at either side of the opening to support the header. This will give your walls a solid feel."

Gilbert: Then why use 24" oc? I know you can use 24 oc with 2x6 studs but why chintz on wall framing but overbuild the headers? If you are using solid core doors, overbuilding headers might be a good idea to decrease slamming vibration but if your walls flex, the work is wasted. Just wondering.

A header bridges an opening between joining walls. It is the key link to connecting the walls at either side. I must confess that the headers I recommended are overkill for non-bearing wall construction, but the solid feel that results from having them is worth it, IMO. Window and door openings are always the weak spots along walls. Next time you look an older home thats been around a while, take a good hard look at the finishes at either sides of the relatively large garage door openings. It is common for Home Builder Contractors to skip on the Garages, so its not uncommon to find overly deflected headers and lintels. Not to mention cracked dry wall on other problems.

There is a need for tighter stud spacings (16"oc typ. for residential construction) around the exterior or perimeter walls of a structure. This is becuase it's the exterior walls that have to transfer the laterally induced forces (i.e. wind and/or seismic loads). And although you are on the right frame of thinking, the 33% increased in material cost associated (24"oc versus 16"oc) with the tighter spacing of interior wall studs is simply not justifiable. This does not include increased labor costs.

[colterphoto1]

"DO NOT SKIMP ON YOUR HEADERS. Depending on wall thinkness, use either dbl 2x12 or triple 2x12 sandwiched with plywood as required to match you stud width. Provide no less than 3 studs (king & jack studs combined) at either side of the opening to support the header. This will give your walls a solid feel."

Gilbert: Then why use 24" oc? I know you can use 24 oc with 2x6 studs but why chintz on wall framing but overbuild the headers? If you are using solid core doors, overbuilding headers might be a good idea to decrease slamming vibration but if your walls flex, the work is wasted. Just wondering.

I think we can pretty much assume that none of these walls is load bearing. IMHO, there is no need to overengineer headers over door openings in basement walls. A simple full stud next to the jack stud should suffice. 2x6 header with blocking should do nicely. Stay at 16" oc standard.

[colterphoto1]

"And although you are on the right frame of thinking, the 33% increased

in material cost associated (24"oc versus 16"oc) with the tighter

spacing of interior wall studs is simply not justifiable. This does not

include increased labor costs."

Considering the expense of the total project, adding 33% stud cost is negligible. I don't like leaning up against 1/2" drywall and feeling like I might fall through. Also, this is a room for music and movie playback, that flexible drywall on 24" centers might be more prone to vibrate than on 16". Framing is no place to save a few dollars.

Personally, my walls are two layers of 1/2 plaster board with a skim coat- over 1" of solid wall, on 2x4 16" o.c. with two fire blocks in every opening- talk about a stiff wall!

M

[colterphoto1]

Being a carpenter, I'd say you're getting great advice here. Michael, can you imagine the two of us on the same job?? What's Damon's address?

The only disagreement I have is with running the drywall vertical. Yes, you can do it either way, but it's stronger run perpendicular to the studs, and drywall finishers hide their butts all day ;^) What's the length of your longest wall, Damon? If access permits, 12' sheets will minimize (or eliminate) vertical joints. If it were me, I would sub-out the drywall. The professionals are SUPER fast, and WAY better than amateurs. Save yourself for the fun (non-back-breaking) work.

That's the problem Fini, many times there is lack of access for long sheets, they are difficult for a homeowner to hang properly, and DIY'ers would do best to deal with tapered sheets only. Your are right about the strength issue, but this isn't a wall with any racking problems, it's all interior to a very stable room. And it does have to be precision framed to do this.

I agree all the way with subing out the drywall. If you do this, sub out ALL the drywall hanging and finishing. You want to come back in when it's ready to paint. Make sure they either sponge finish (no sanding) or if they sand, block off all doorways and AIR DUCTS to the rest of the house or you'll never get rid of the dust.

M

[Gilbert]

Personally, my walls are two layers of 1/2 plaster board with a skim coat- over 1" of solid wall, on 2x4 16" o.c. with two fire blocks in every opening- talk about a stiff wall!

M

Micheal my friend, it's not the stud spacing that's giving you a stiff wall. And there are other significanlty less expensive ways of stiffening a stick framed wall than what you are suggesting.

As for a single 2x6 header. That's a joke, load bearing wall or not.

[Klipschfoot]

Here's some more free advice.

Are your floors in the rooms above the basement stiff enough? Can you feel someone entering the room because the floor deflects? Do the dishes rattle in a cabinet when you walk across the room? Does your needle skip when you walk toward your turntable?

Before you close in your basement, you can stiffen a deflective floor by "blocking" the floor joists with a double laminated short length of the same size joist material as your floor. Screw or nail them perpendicular to the joists. If you do this, be sure to stagger the blocks so you don't weaken the joist with too many screws or nails.

You can also "sister" the existing joists with another length of same joist material. This works great and takes care of any deflection problems.

(As usual, you are entitled to the forum discount for building consultation.)

[colterphoto1]

Personally, my walls are two layers of 1/2 plaster board with a skim coat- over 1" of solid wall, on 2x4 16" o.c. with two fire blocks in every opening- talk about a stiff wall!

M

Micheal my friend, it's not the stud spacing that's giving you a stiff wall. And there are other significanlty less expensive ways of stiffening a stick framed wall than what you are suggesting.

As for a single 2x6 header. That's a joke, load bearing wall or not.

I am out of here, and leave you Mr. Damonrpayne in the hands of the professionals.

Sorry, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. I suppose if everyone offers their experience and opinions then Damon can sort out the 'building by committee' thing. But let's not fight amongst ourselves. This could become like the crossover issues very quickly.

So I apologize for quoting Gilbert's post and disagreeing with him publicly. My statements were just of my own experiences in several years of basement remodeling.

My statement about my own home is not really germaine here as it was built in 1955.

Michael

[IndyKlipschFan]

Look Daymon.. Some stuff we can agree in and on. Walls on the sides and if possible, on the ceiling that do not touch, trusses are home runs. I did this too. I agree with the be your own general contractor idea, I used 2-3 bids with each of what I had outsiders do. Did it make me any less of a man I did not personally do it with my bare hands? Heck no! Look for construction crews that did your house or nearby houses for work.

You can pay for the lumber when they give you a bill, It will take a day or two to get it delivered.. And labor 1/2 at the start and the rest when done. (That's what I did.)

After all, I drew the design down to each and everything that was important to me. I pulled all of the audio wires in conduit pipes, all of the Karaoke wires Video wires and Karaoke /stage lighting wires all over my basement. (right after framing)

I had a lot going on in my family, and work in 2005. We all do really, I am not unlike many on here. So the fact I let the big guys and his crew bring in HUGE drywall sheets and screw em in, tape, mud, and sand it all for me.. It didn't effect me one bit!! hahahaha I was happy to let them do it. Trust me!

As for a wood floor, I looked into it a lot and decided not too. Some of it was cost vs what would I get out of it too? To me, nothing beats a superior pad and better carpet as well. If you had a older house with a history of wet floors might be something to look into?? In a new house I am not to sure you need it.

[fini]

Personally, having more studs in my house would probably decrease the stiffness.

[Joe Shmoe]

Being a carpenter, I'd say you're getting great advice here. Michael, can you imagine the two of us on the same job?? What's Damon's address? The only disagreement I have is with running the drywall vertical. Yes, you can do it either way, but it's stronger run perpendicular to the studs, and drywall finishers hide their butts all day ;^) What's the length of your longest wall, Damon? If access permits, 12' sheets will minimize (or eliminate) vertical joints. If it were me, I would sub-out the drywall. The professionals are SUPER fast, and WAY better than amateurs. Save yourself for the fun (non-back-breaking) work.

That's the problem Fini, many times there is lack of access for long sheets, they are difficult for a homeowner to hang properly, and DIY'ers would do best to deal with tapered sheets only. Your are right about the strength issue, but this isn't a wall with any racking problems, it's all interior to a very stable room. And it does have to be precision framed to do this.

I agree all the way with subing out the drywall. If you do this, sub out ALL the drywall hanging and finishing. You want to come back in when it's ready to paint. Make sure they either sponge finish (no sanding) or if they sand, block off all doorways and AIR DUCTS to the rest of the house or you'll never get rid of the dust.

M

Michael has some good advice there... working in HVAC myself, I cannot tell you the horror of coming back into a semi finished new home & finding the furnace just caked with drywall dust! For that reason alone I said I would never build a house in the winter! If possible just leave the furnace off, and cover return air & supply air register openings. If heat is needed, get a portable.

As for spacing of 2x4's just go with 16"oc. It is stronger & makes it easier to insulate, if using bats..(which that brings up another option of what types of insulation) lol... sorry.

Also... who ever does the drywall, insist on screws only! It just kills me to see today's drywallers using nails. Although they may not use 100% nails... I would just do without them totally! The nail tends to ease out (pop) sometimes after settling, causing a bump in your wall... just go with screws & be worry free.

[Joe Shmoe]

Personally, having more studs in my house would probably decrease the stiffness.

LOL.... Is that why my studfinder keeps going off in my hand, or anytime I am close to it? []

[TheSoundBroker]

If there are no signs of moisture intrusion, and the wall has been erected for a year or more, then assumption and engineering judgment is all you have to go by. The next best thing would be to uncover an isolated portion of the wall and verify that a moisture barrier has been applied

However, if someone is trying to push a product or create business for himself, (and I know Arch's that will stoop this low), then selling fear together with that product are the way to go. But if this is not the case, and you are genuinely concerned about any potential problems, then why not 1^st recommend to the owner, that he get a contractor to bring a shovel and unearth a portion of subject wall to verify your assumption that it was applied wrong. That should be a whole lot cheaper than specifying a Band-Aid.

If a wall has evidence of moisture penetration, and the only thing that is specified for the fix is a product applied to the inside face, then there has been no fix prescribed to address the real problem. And the real problem is a structural issue, not one of interior finishing.

There should be no reason to seal the inside face of a retaining wall. That is pure BS and unnecessary added cost. It does NOTHING to enhance the durability to the structure, which is a hell of lot more critical than the room finish. I may have missed something in the previous posts, but I don't remember anything being said about moisture having been detected on the inside face of the wall. Asphaltic mastic compound (one of the most common water proofing methods used for this type of construction) is easy to apply. IT'S A NO BRAINER. I've seen it done countless times.

If your seeing moisture problems with your below grade walls, then your either spec'ing a bad and difficult to use product, or you are consistently working with some really stupid contractors, and I doubt the latter is the case. Anything more costly than a plastic sheathing (just for a warm fuzzy) between the studs and the inside face of wall is money down the toilet.

I recently designed an 18,000 sf 3 story addition to a fraternity house at OSU. A relatively small project, but it was a stick framed and a good example to explain my point. The addition, like the original 1923 structure, has 14 ft BG retaining walls. One of the walls is adjacent the parking lot, so ASSHTO surcharge applied. Before I did my design, I inspected the frat-house from top to bottom. My inspection required that many of the existing perimeters 2x finish walls in the basement be torn down. There was not one sign of moisture penetration, 83 years after being constructed. And yes, the wall had shrinkage cracks, so I assumed that 83 years ago, someone applied a moisture preventative backing at the outside face. There was no sealer of any kind, or anywhere throughout the entire inside face of existing structure.

The Arch. I worked with on this project spec'd no moisture barrier at the inside face of wall for either the new or existing portions construction. Why, because it simply is not necessary. That Arch. has over 40yrs experience, is cognizant of the moisture related issues inherent with underground structures, and is also a Fraternity brother of that organization. So I don't think he would ever want to have a bad Rep with the fraternity, but then again, that is only an assumption.

Even if the wall has been up for a year...the critical part is how long has the structure been closed up. An open structure that has a ton of vapor intrusion will not necessarily show it because there is enough airflow with an open construction site to mask excessive vapor intrusion. There are easy tests you can do to the wall to see if there is excessive vapor intrusion. The cheapest one is to tape a 1 ft square sheet of plastic over the wall and come back in 24 hours to see how much water is there. The second is to use a calibrated concrete moisture meter to test the wall and a calibrated Hygrometer to see what the moisture load in the room is (under 50% is desirable).

As for exterior moisture barriers, asphaltic mastic *is* easy to apply...but the issue is that often it is NOT applied correctly. I've seen several cases of below grade houses with a mastic coating where the walls were weeping. Why? Several reasons...

First the mastic is not always applied all the way to the very bottom of the wall and/or the mastic seal is scuffed or broken during backfilling. Just a small break can let a very significant amount of water thru in a very wet area. Second, I live in Western Washington where Hydrostatic pressure is a way of life. We see water that works its way up thru the foundation/wall joint from the side or even from underneath (CRB walls are very porous and will soak water up from a slab like crazy, bypassing all the mastic you care to apply). I just did a house with EXACTLY this problem. They had new drainage, mastic seal on the walls and had tons of water in the basement that was coming up thru the slab and up into the walls (from an underground river that was adjacent to the property). We sealed the insides...problem solved. And keep in mind, I don't spec these things...people, including owners, contractors and architects, call me later on down the line when they do have problems, so I see how things go wrong, even with good intentions. And no, it is not necessarily cheaper to dig up the entire foundation of a building than to correctly apply a concrete silica gel sealing system.

Last but not least...location location location. If you live in Arizona or Palm Springs, chances are you won't have any issues. If you live in Western Washington in the hills...it is far cheaper to do the one simple additional step IN ADDITION to the mastic seal, than tearing it down later and re-doing it. As for your 1923 building...if the existing building had no issues with moisture intrusion, chances are that the surrounding area had adquate drainage and/or geography that precluded any problems. That is good! But don't assume that doesn't mean there can't be problems in other structures.

[colterphoto1]

On the damp proofing issue, we live in Indiana, which used to be forests and swamp. Add to that heavy clay subsoil and you have recipie for disaster. I don't know if Damon has these issues, but since we were talking about it....

My bro built a house a few years back and I thought they took some good steps. In additon to the black mastic material carefully covering the monolithic poured concrete basement walls, they stuck 1" yellow compressed fibreglass material on all walls under the grade. This was the dense stuff like they use sometimes for HVAC ducts or acoustical panels. THis product keeps the mastic from scuffing during backfill, and also because it is somewhat porus, gives water near the wall an easy channel to get to the perimeter drain at the top of the footer.

Additionally, at my city home, I took out the non operational battery backup and installed a water driven sump pump. It is purely mechanical, requiring no electricity. A float in the tank trips a valve, which open a 3/4 line to city water. This squirts through a venturi creating a suction which draws water from the sump pit. It will not stop until the city runs out of water.

Michael

[ygmn]

Move south where we do not have basements.... because they would be below water table......

hehehehe

Get a building permit... your local inspectors will ensure it is at least built to code....which is minimum required...

anything more is great...but costs $ which may or may not be a good thing to you

[damonrpayne]

Thanks for the advice everyone, I have cataloged much of what's been said here and I'm incorporating everything into my plans. I won't be able to get started on this yet anway, due to the surprisingly insane cost of scraping dirt around (grading and topsoil)

[colterphoto1]

Damon, were you aware that this is building season? Every good carpenter should have his schedule full for the next 4 months. Even part-timers have decks etc.

You might gain substantial discounts or have better subs to select from if you can hold off until the slower winter months when the guys are hungry for work.

M

[damonrpayne]

Yeah, between my landscaping and new car for the Mrs., seems I have no choice but to wait at least a few months.

[Klipschfoot]

A friend of mine bought a used bulldozer to grade around his home. He is doing OJT and will sell the dozer when he is done - probably on eBay and probably, knowing him, for a profit. He is having fun and saving a bundle.

[IndyKlipschFan]

If your looking for great fill dirt, I suggest if your in a new neighborhood ask the builder down the street if he can move some to your lot.. I re graded my lot with several truck loads.. (big trucks not passenger trucks and made some mounds etc., etc., for not much money at all.) They often time, just dump great top soil, which is what you want anyhow.

Hope this helps too. It was cheaper for him to go down the street for me and the small bull dozer he used on the other lot he used to push it around on mine here just fine.