oogins Posted October 30, 2001 Share Posted October 30, 2001 I have been looking at many subs for the past couple months, and I think I need help now. Right now, my two top picks are the Paradigm PW-2200 and the SVS 25-31PC. But I don't know if they will go well with the Quintets. The speakers only play down to 100 Hz (120 for the center). I need to know which subs are best for playing higher frequencies (ex. between 80-120 Hz). Will these two subs be able to handle that well? If not, could I get suggestion for some other subs. Preferably, something under $800. TheEar, I know you've had lots of experience with subs, your vast collection shows it. Can you suggest anything? ------------------ -Paul AMD T-Bird 900 Asus A7V Micron 256 MB PC-133 IBM 30 GB 7200 rpm ATA 100 Pioneer DVD-105 Slot-Load (16X/40X) 3Dfx Voodoo5 5500 AGP NEC MultiSync M700 17" SB Live! X-Gamer 5.1 Receiver: Kenwood VR-409 (soon to be Denon 2802 or Yamaha RX-V1200) Speakers: Klipsch Quintets (5 sats + center) Sub: Sony SA-W305 (soon to be SVS 25-31PC or Paradigm PW-2200) This message has been edited by oogins on 10-30-2001 at 10:34 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 30, 2001 Share Posted October 30, 2001 Well Paul I would not recomend the Paradigm with the Quintets.While the Paradigm is a great sub it does not match well with small sats.And as you know the Quintets are tiny sats and dont have any bass below 80Hz to speak of. I have the Quintets and I tried the Paradigm with Paradigm Atom and Micro sats.It worked quite well,the Atom can go down to a good 60Hz and matches much better with the 2200. The SVS I used was the Ultra with the ouboard Carver amp while its a first rate super sub it was cut via the Denon 5800 sub crossover and it could match Dynaudio Contour 1.1's very well.I would guess the SVS Cylinder series is a great choice. The M&K would be THE best choice with your Quintets.M&K has various subs under $800 that are both fast and can have the bass punch you may seek to match the bass deprived Quintets. I had the M&K 700 sub and it was by far the best match for tiny sats.No other subs could match the small M&K. And the M&K is a very high quality sub,plentry of power to match larger speakers if you upgrade later. Just set the crossover lower. So my recomendation for you would be M&K. http://www.mksound.com/subwoofer.html The M&K will be the best match for your Quintets. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattG Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 Hey oogins, I am faced with a similar problem in that I have Quintets (6 with no center) and am looking for a good sub. I e-mailed SVS with the question about the higher frequency output of the SVS subs. I quote their response "I'm not sure where the Quintets peter out but the 25-31CS will easily extend to 100-120Hz. The problem is that your Denon (I think?) has a fixed crossover at 80Hz when your speakers are set to small. You could well have a small gap inbetween but it won't be due to any limitation of the SVS." I told them that I was going to be using the Denon 3802. TheEars made reference to the cutoff point in his post when using the 5800. If this is the case, it would not matter what sub you use to try to get to high bass frequencies if the reciever is going to cutoff any thing above 80ish. BTW, what are you using to push your Quintets, and how do they sound for you? Hey, could you try hooking up one of your satellites as the center channel and let me know if there is much sound difference? As I said above I don't have a center and would like to know from a person with one, if it is going to be worth the hastle of obtaining one. MattG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 You could also wire the subwoofer up via speaker level (setting the mains to large,sub to no) that would give you an approx 120hz highpass point for the mains.(with the 25-31PC)...might work out very well. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake2 Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 TV is on the right track. The Quintets have a built-in high-pass filter at around 100-120hz. I'd suggest setting the fronts to large, and wiring the sub AND the mains directly to the receiver's front speaker posts, using the speaker level input on the sub of course. Crank the sub's low pass filter up to 120hz or so and let it rip (as a starting point). DD2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-man Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 I would suggest you get a Klipsch KSW12. They really rock at higher frequencies. They also have a high pass fixed at 100 hz, so wire them up to your speaker out terms on the Denon, and hook the quints up to the sub. Perfect harmony for you! T-man ------------------ KG 5.5 (mains) KG 2.2v (center) KLF-C7 (center in storage) KG 1 (rears) KSW-12 (sub) Denon AVR 681/1601 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Kenwood LVD700 LD Sony CD changer Sony 27" Trinitron Sony PLX I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oogins Posted October 31, 2001 Author Share Posted October 31, 2001 TheEAR: Those M&K's look nice. I would like to have that 700, but that's just a wee bit out of my price range. The 100 seems like a good compromise. What's your opinion on that? MattG: Right now I'm using a Kenwood 409 to drive the speakers. It sounds great. But I have no idea what the crossover is set on this thing, as there is nothing in the manual describing that. Think of a Denon manual but 10X worse and 10X shorter as well. One of the main features Im looking for in a new receiver is an adjustable crossover. The Denon 2802 has that (80, 100, 120 Hz) but Im not sure about the Yamaha 1200. I think its set at 90 Hz, and it thats the case, then Im going with the Denon. Either way though, the Quintets sound great, even when hooked up to this cheapo Kenwood. As for a center speaker, a satellite will work fine. I used a satellite for a center for almost 5 months and it worked quite well. I've only had the center speaker for a couple weeks, and the differences are quite subtle. The center has a more open sound to it but there's not really a night and day difference between the sound of the two. I don't think you should go out of your way to get one, but if the opportunity arrives, get it. It looks a lot better than a satellite when sitting on top of your TV. TV, DD2 and t-man: If I hook up the mains to the sub like that, wouldnt I be missing the bass from the center and surrounds? ------------------ -Paul AMD T-Bird 900 Asus A7V Micron 256 MB PC-133 IBM 30 GB 7200 rpm ATA 100 Pioneer DVD-105 Slot-Load (16X/40X) 3Dfx Voodoo5 5500 AGP NEC MultiSync M700 17" SB Live! X-Gamer 5.1 Receiver: Kenwood VR-409 (soon to be Denon 2802 or Yamaha RX-V1200) Speakers: Klipsch Quintets (5 sats + center) Sub: Sony SA-W305 (soon to be SVS 25-31PC or Paradigm PW-2200) This message has been edited by oogins on 10-31-2001 at 07:40 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t-man Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 You would not lose bass from there as long as you set center and rears to "small", and fronts to "large". The small speakers will route low bass to the fronts, and thus filter through the sub if hooked up as suggested. T-man ------------------ KG 5.5 (mains) KG 2.2v (center) KLF-C7 (center in storage) KG 1 (rears) KSW-12 (sub) Denon AVR 681/1601 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Kenwood LVD700 LD Sony CD changer Sony 27" Trinitron Sony PLX I Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted October 31, 2001 Share Posted October 31, 2001 Good eye Paul! Yes the M&K 100 is the single drivers version of the 700!Same bass driver,same quality amp.Similar cabinet. Its tiny,beware it packs a BIG punch.Its above all tight,fast and will blend well(damn well)with the Quintets! Find a dealer and listen,tell them what you have(Quintets)and I think they will agree.For a fast and punchy sub that can reach up(few can do this well)the M&K is a top contender. Now find a dealer and bring your DVD's some music CD's and listen.Quality bass,not FAT bass is what M&K is about. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oogins Posted November 1, 2001 Author Share Posted November 1, 2001 BAH! I just looked at the international dealers for M&K products and there are only two of them in Canada. One in Montreal and one in Vancouver. I live in Calgary, 1000 friggin' kilometres away from Vancouver and 2600 from Montreal. How am I supposed to audition the VX-100 sub now? I suppose I could order it and just hope it's good, but I don't want to take that chance. But then again, I guess you take that chance when ordering an SVS sub. ------------------ -Paul AMD T-Bird 900 Asus A7V Micron 256 MB PC-133 IBM 30 GB 7200 rpm ATA 100 Pioneer DVD-105 Slot-Load (16X/40X) 3Dfx Voodoo5 5500 AGP NEC MultiSync M700 17" SB Live! X-Gamer 5.1 Receiver: Kenwood VR-409 (soon to be Denon 2802 or Yamaha RX-V1200) Speakers: Klipsch Quintets (5 sats + center) Sub: Sony SA-W305 (soon to be SVS 25-31PC or M&K VX-100) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 The MK700 is ok, but it's not nearly in the same league as the 25-31 regarding low,clean bass reproduction. It would probably take 2-4 of the 700s to approach the clean output capability of the 25-31. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Its not always just about OUTPUT.If output was the only and most important for all users the pro speakers would outsell the home speakers.And even SVS,Revel and Velodyne compare poorly to pro SUBS these can put out well over 130dB clean down to 30Hz(in a large room). But then again why get these huge horn loaded monsters? Ah it still fun with pro monitors. One heavy metal/hard rock fanatic has the CerwinVega T36/750(subs) and the T250(sats).With Carver pro amps!talk about power punch.My RF-7 with even the Bryston 14B-ST sound weak in comparison! I said the M&K 100 and 700 are great with small sats. The SVS,Sunfire,Velodyne,Revel and Aerial are overkill for tiny sats.And when the Quintets are thrown in the picture the M&K is a superb match,it one of the few subs with upper bass punch,clean punch. I know the SVS has much more output down low.With larger speakers the SVS is the obvious choice over M&K. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 >>>Its not always just about OUTPUT.<<< Ok, but what advantages does the 700 have in trade for it's lesser output? Is it much cheaper,more reliable,more features? I mean...why NOT go for the most headroom you can? >>>If output was the only and most important for all users the pro speakers would outsell the home speakers.<<< No one said it was only about output. It's about extension,flat response and clean headroom...coupled with reasonably sized enclosures and all the features you need in the sub. >>>And even SVS,Revel and Velodyne compare poorly to pro SUBS these can put out well over 130dB clean down to 30Hz(in a large room).<<< Which subs are these? a CLEAN 30hz/130dB in a large room?) Where was the mic placed and how much distortion was there? (and who would want a subwoofer that dies at 30hz anyway...sounds like a bose module on steriods?) >>>I said the M&K 100 and 700 are great with small sats. The SVS,Sunfire,Velodyne,Revel and Aerial are overkill for tiny sats.And when the Quintets are thrown in the picture the M&K is a superb match,it one of the few subs with upper bass punch,clean punch.<<< I don't agree. Can't the Quintets play louder than say 90dBs? If so...the MK700 won't keep up in a larger room. And if the quintets can play at say 95dBs...the MK will be left for dead(<35hz or so). I still don't see any advantage in going for LESS headroom and extension in this case? TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 LOL TV turns to TVodquote,again! I will not turn this into a quote war. All I will say is,YES I agree about going for all the output you can get.WHY NOT? And YES the SVS sube have more,way more output down low. Let me... "Ok, but what advantages does the 700 have in trade for it's lesser output?" Upper bass impact,perfect match with tiny sats. I have to hear a sub match tiny sats like the small M&K's.And yes I heard even your top of the line SVS Ultra(damn good,make this superb product). Now about the 30Hz at 130dB... "Which subs are these? a CLEAN 30hz/130dB in a large room?) Where was the mic placed and how much distortion was there? (and who would want a subwoofer that dies at 30hz anyway...sounds like a bose module on steriods?)" Music is not only sub 30hz sounds(very few instruments will reach lower,many fake movie and digital stuff does I KNOW). For rock and heavy metal you dont need sub 30Hz output. CerwinVega Pro,KlipschPro and EAW horn loaded subs can give you the kind of punch no home sub can. Four CW218 subs with four T36/750 subs!This is slam and output no 8 home subs can match.No matter where you stick the mic,even in the toilet bowl. All these are horn loaded 15 and 18 pro bass drivers.The amps Pro Carver and Crown Macro Reeference. On average a good kilowatt RMS per sub module!And yes these subs can take the power.And return the favor. Your ears will bleed before you hear these distort in a 18*24 room.The impact is surreal.I dont say its High-End,its not.One has to go overboard to get these monsters.As they dont have any bass to speak of below 30Hz.These are all designed to hit the crowds at large concert venues.Try this with SVS subs,you would need a small army of them. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 1, 2001 Share Posted November 1, 2001 Ok, you hate quoting? 1)why would you think the 25-31PC can't match the quintets? the 31s is relatively flat to 120hz last I checked...and the quintets are rated to 100hz..so I would think the upper end would be fine. 2)you mentioned 130dB/30hz, not me. I asked for details...and you meander into music notation? 3)... on second thought forget it...skip the 25-31PC and get the mk700. I'm not about to get into another 50 post exchange with this kind of *point/vague meandering to unrelated counterpoint* again on this forum...you win... TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 You can call this "vague meandering" as long as you want. When I point at another option besides the SVS you jump from under the bridge like a troll and swing the mace. OK TV your subs are the best in the WORLD.Happy now? And to answer you,I never said(quote me if I did)the SVS Cylinder or Ultra cant match the Quintets(go up to 120,I am quite sure they can). The M&K is very compact and would be plenty for the Quintets. That is all,I have no desire to make a post war.its my last post in this thread. TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVodhanel Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 ears...are you on medication? Here's your ACCUSATION... """When I point at another option besides the SVS you jump from under the bridge like a troll and swing the mace.""" But here is my COMPLETE text in response to your suggestion. *****The MK700 is ok, but it's not nearly in the same league as the 25-31 regarding low,clean bass reproduction. It would probably take 2-4 of the 700s to approach the clean output capability of the 25-31. TV***** I jumped out from no bridge,I attacked no one,I insulted no one,i swung no mace...I stated a fact about one aspect of the performance between the two subs being compared. Maybe it's time your starting reading my text more carefully...because your accusations have little basis in reality. TV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattG Posted November 2, 2001 Share Posted November 2, 2001 Wow. Hey did you see that Denon dropped the price on the 3802 down two hundred dollars? This message has been edited by MattG on 11-02-2001 at 11:22 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oogins Posted November 3, 2001 Author Share Posted November 3, 2001 MattG, where did you see this? I went to Denon's page, and the 3802 is still $1200. BTW, I found an M&K dealer here in Calgary. Next chance I get, I'm going to test out the VX-100. I think I'll bring along two Quintets as well. ------------------ -Paul AMD T-Bird 900 Asus A7V Micron 256 MB PC-133 IBM 30 GB 7200 rpm ATA 100 Pioneer DVD-105 Slot-Load (16X/40X) 3Dfx Voodoo5 5500 AGP NEC MultiSync M700 17" SB Live! X-Gamer 5.1 Receiver: Kenwood VR-409 (soon to be Denon 2802 or Yamaha RX-V1200) Speakers: Klipsch Quintets (5 sats + center) Sub: Sony SA-W305 (soon to be SVS 25-31PC or M&K VX-100) This message has been edited by oogins on 11-03-2001 at 05:18 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattG Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 Oogins, Crutchfield.com has the Denon 3802 priced at $999.95 and Goodguys.com has it listed for $999.99 with no tax and free shipping! I'm not sure how things work shipping to Canada. I guess I just used the 1+1=2 theory; authorized dealers advertise suggested retail price and two authorized Denon web dealers have lowered their prices. MattG This message has been edited by MattG on 11-03-2001 at 11:02 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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