Mike Lindsey Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Kind of the carriage before the horse dilemma, but I bought a LOMC Denon DL-103 cartidge thinking I could use it with my existing table/arm (Dual CS-5000), and come to find out I cannot because the DL-103 requires a high mass arm, and my Dual comes with a low mass arm. From doing some research I have been told that the DL-103 is an excellent cartridge with a Thorens TD-125/MK II SME 3009/II table/arm. I know the TD-124/SME 3012 is another excellent choice, but the dollars go up with that table. So, I am looking for either of these two tables with the SME arms, and was hoping one of you fine people might have one for sale, or might know someone who does. I am looking on eBay and Agon as well, but it's always nice to deal with those people that I trust here. BTW, the other thing I need to do in order to play this table with that cartridge is to send Mark the BBX to get the Cream option installed. Cha-Ching! [] Thanks, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted April 28, 2006 Author Share Posted April 28, 2006 Well... like it or not, that's where I am. [] Allan, don't you know where any of these things are... maybe just sitting around and collecting dust? [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 I don't have any spare tables other than a couple of Rek-O-Cuts and and a "basket case" Garrard 401. Sorry! They turn up all the time on ebay and Audiogon--keep your eyes peeled! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 The SME was considered a low mass arm, back in the day. Good arm, and the 125 was considered one of the best of its time, with very low rumble, minimal speed problems, and good isolation. I had a 125 and TD-124 at the same time - I sold the 124 and kept the 125.. I'd hold out for a 125, by the way. The lesser models, like the TD-160, give away too much, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Uh . . . The SME 3009-III is a low mass arm and the SME 3009 "improved" is a medium to low-mass arm . The orignal 3009 and the 3009/2 are both medium to high mass arms are are MADE to work with cartridges such as the Denon and the Ortofon SPU. So . . . Make SURE to get the CORRECT 3009!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted April 28, 2006 Author Share Posted April 28, 2006 Hi Bob... thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I was looking at the TD-160's as well, but have pretty much made up my mind on the TD-125. I would opt for the TD-124 if I could afford it. Thanks, Allan... Yeah, I was told just the original SME 3009 and SME 3009 II would yield optimal results with that cartridge. I'm trying to clear up some cash and have a Shure V15 III and IV on eBay, as well as a Mullard 5AR4. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Uh . . . The SME 3009-III is a low mass arm and the SME 3009 "improved" is a medium to low-mass arm . The orignal 3009 and the 3009/2 are both medium to high mass arms are are MADE to work with cartridges such as the Denon and the Ortofon SPU. So . . . Make SURE to get the CORRECT 3009!! Yeah, what he said. My point was, at the time the SME 3009s first appeared, most arms seemed like Buicks by comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted April 28, 2006 Author Share Posted April 28, 2006 Just curious Bob... but why did you prefer the TD-125 over the TD-124? From most accounts the TD-124 is revered by many with the right arm/cart, and if setup optimally. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebes Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Not trying to hijack (well maybe just a little) but all of this talk around here lately about the Denon carts has got me interested in trying one. Questions: Wwould the Denon be a good fit for a Rega P3 with the RB300 arm? Another question, can my Marantz 7T handle a MC cart? All I see on the phono switches are RIAA, Old Columbia Recordings and 78's. Could I use the high level inputs for the MC instead of the low-level phono inputs? Will Mike sell me his Denon for $25? Stay tuned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fini Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Marty-- There's a formula you use to figure out if a cartridge matches the arm. In general, the more massive the arm, the stiffer the cartridge cantilever (term: compliance) must be. Kinda makes sense. It's a lot like finding the right pair of women for a guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted April 28, 2006 Author Share Posted April 28, 2006 Will Mike sell me his Denon for $25? LOL! [] You never know... if I can't find a table/arm to go with it. Actually, I think I read on the Vinyl Asylum that the DL-103 was not a good match for the RB300 arm. I will have to take another look and get back to you on that. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 First off, let me say many of my problems with the 124 probably could have been ameliorated with a lot of TLC. The TD-124 was noticibly louder - more rumble. The TD-124 took a while for the speed to stabilize - it gained speed for about 15 minutes. The TD-124 had a Rabco arm on it. (I know, that's not the turntable's fault. It is the reason I punched it, though.) The TD-124 had a ferrous platter which adversely affected some cartridges. Not as bad as the Philips 212, but the same idea. The TD-124 had a homemade base which looked a bit declasse. The TD-125 had a much better suspension - I didn't have to sneak up on it to keep it from skipping and it didn't feed back when I was "exercising" the Cornwalls. Yes I did replace the mushrooms under the leveling adjustments. It helped, but not much. The first and last reasons were the most decisive. The TD-124 is a neat table, and it's built to withstand high explosives. I just liked the 125 better. On a similar vein - Anyone know what's the read on the stock Thorens arm which came with the Thorens 125-AB? I've heard it was adequate, but just barely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Just curious Bob... but why did you prefer the TD-125 over the TD-124? From most accounts the TD-124 is revered by many with the right arm/cart, and if setup optimally. Mike You said it yourself. You really have to spend some time and money with the 124. Allan loves his 124/3012/SPU combination but to put together a setup like that right now will cost you $3K. The 125 and 124 are totally different turntables. Idler vs. belt. Susupension vs. no suspension. I've always been a fan of belts with a suspension. So you can guess which one I like and I have both. I've got to spend some more time though with my little 124. One of these days I hope to get a 3012 and an SPU and give that combination a try. I have more pressing collectible needs at the moment like a dam grey ugly *** Garrard 301. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allan Songer Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 A TD-124 with a RABCO?!? OUCH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Another question, can my Marantz 7T handle a MC cart? All I see on the phono switches are RIAA, Old Columbia Recordings and 78's. Could I use the high level inputs for the MC instead of the low-level phono inputs? Depends on the cartridge. Some will need a transformer or a head-amp. I don't know about the Denon. If it's called a "high output" moving coil, plug it into the phono inputs. If it's more traditional, you'll need to do something. Supposedly the transformers are more neutral and quiet, the head amps are more dynamic and punchy. You pays your money and takes your choices. I tried a high output moving coil with my Marantz 7. Not a happy union. The 7 went unstable. No one could ever figure out why, so I just figured "it is," and went back to the Ortofon MC-20 and transformer. The 7 seemed to like that. Another cautionary note - when I inheirited my dad's TD-126 III, I put an Ortofon MC-10 in it. It picks up hum as it gets near the center of the record. MM cartridges don't have a problem, and the MC-10 doesn't have a problem with the TD-125. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnBob Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 A TD-124 with a RABCO?!? OUCH! Seemed like a good idea at the time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 A TD-124 with a RABCO?!? OUCH! Seemed like a good idea at the time... Double ouch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
triceratops Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Uh . . . The SME 3009-III is a low mass arm and the SME 3009 "improved" is a medium to low-mass arm . The orignal 3009 and the 3009/2 are both medium to high mass arms are are MADE to work with cartridges such as the Denon and the Ortofon SPU. So . . . Make SURE to get the CORRECT 3009!! Well, I definitely screwed up on this! I was riding Mike's coat tails on this topic and had an opportunity to pick up a Thorens 125 MKII with SME 3009 arm locally. There was just one of the Denon DL-103 cartridges left on Ebay so I snagged that, too. Obviously, I should have done at least a little homework on this, but I had the week off work and a tax refund coming so I didn't give it much thought... It turns out the arm on this table is the SME 3009 "Improved"--apparently not the right arm for this cartridge. So I have a few questions: 1. I have an old B&O SP-12 cartridge (it's a big cylindrical thing) with an almost new stylus. Any chance that would be a decent match with the 125 MK II and SME 3009 "Improved" arm? 2. Would the Denon DL-103 cartridge work better with a 125 MK II with a stock Thorens arm? Thanks for any advice... Best in horns, triceratops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted April 30, 2006 Author Share Posted April 30, 2006 Well, the one on eBay I was interested in just went for $465 + S/H ($60), and I was going to bid $300 on it before things got out of hand in the last minute. One went last week with the SME 3009 arm for $275. Always figures when I start to get interested in certain things that the prices go thru the roof. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott0527 Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Well, the one on eBay I was interested in just went for $465 + S/H ($60), and I was going to bid $300 on it before things got out of hand in the last minute. One went last week with the SME 3009 arm for $275. Always figures when I start to get interested in certain things that the prices go thru the roof. Mike $465 is not at all out of hand. Reasons for price difference between the $465 auction and the $290.... 1. $465 had the older version SME 3009 arm. The $290 had the "improved" 3009 which despite the "improved" moniker is generally considered a lesser arm. 2. The $465 was a TD 125, the $290 was a TD 125 MKII. Thorens changed the bearing in these turntables and the earlier bearing ( triangle shaped, screwed to the plinth ) is more desirable. At this minute there is a decent looking TD125 still at a silly low price. No arm. Ends in about 1/2 hour. $500 for this turntable with an SME 3009 arm is why I think this set up is so great. I have not found another turntable in that price range that sounds as wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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