LousyTourist Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 The SVS sub: http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-isdv.cfm The HSU: http://www.hsustore.com/vtf3.html anybody have an opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 I'm not a fan of down-firing designs and notice how neither manufacturer lists maxSPL capabilities for their designs. So here is my opinion for the same price range: http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=654 ($650) I don't have much experience with HSU but SVS is pretty much purchasing an assembled DIY speaker. Nothing wrong with that, but they don't have the engineering capability of some of the larger companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psg Posted May 1, 2006 Share Posted May 1, 2006 I have a Hsu STF-3 and I'm very happy with it. The only Klipsch sub I ever heard was the RW-10 in a store, so wasn't directly comparable (although similar in price for Canada). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckeye_Nut Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Both are reputable well made subs, but the SVS is capable of doing much more at the bottom end. If you want a sub for movies, then I'd definitely recommend the SVS. If your main interest is music, then it's probably a tossup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I'm not a fan of down-firing designs and notice how neither manufacturer lists maxSPL capabilities for their designs. So here is my opinion for the same price range: http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=654 ($650) I don't have much experience with HSU but SVS is pretty much purchasing an assembled DIY speaker. Nothing wrong with that, but they don't have the engineering capability of some of the larger companies. Actually, you have it backwards. SVS is exclusively engineering (which is why they're so much better than Klipsch subs for the same price) and very little marketing/overhead. The 12-NSD would lay waste to the RW-12 in output and extension, pure physics. I have no experience with HSU. Not sure what Dr Who meant by SVS resembling DIY. If you mean the NSD doesn't have a pretty plastic glued-on front piece and some fake veneer like the RW, then ok. No offense to Klipsch but the more fancy plastic pieces you snap on to your sub, the less respect you'll get from me. Don't make me pay for that crap. Sorry Dr. Who. It's been a long weekend and I don't mean to be so opinionated. I'll cool down in a few hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I'm not a fan of down-firing designs and notice how neither manufacturer lists maxSPL capabilities for their designs. So here is my opinion for the same price range: http://www.klipsch.com/product/product.aspx?cid=654 ($650) I don't have much experience with HSU but SVS is pretty much purchasing an assembled DIY speaker. Nothing wrong with that, but they don't have the engineering capability of some of the larger companies. You're joking, right? That Klipsch sub doesn't stand a chance against anything that HSU or SVS has to offer at that price. "SVS is pretty much purchasing an assembled DIY speaker." WTF?!?! It's funny how you feel you can judge something with only having very little experience if none at all with either of the other subs. I on the other hand have, and know quite well what they are capable of. I've also heard my fair share of Klipsch subs, which is why I never bought one. The SVS PB12-ISD/2 (now the PB12-NSD/2) which I used to own runs circles around pretty much anything Klipsch has to offer, and that's SVS' lower line. Step up to their Plus or Ultra line and there's no comparison at all. Yes, SVS used to get their drivers from TC Sounds, but they were custom made to SVS' specs. But now SVS designs and builds their own drivers in house. Their new NSD drivers are just about equal to the TC Sounds Plus drivers they used to use. Their digital BASH amps are made by a Canadian company, but don't let those somewhat lower power ratings fool you. The 325 watt amp is capable of more that 600 watts peak, likewise with their 600 watt amp, capable of 1400 watts peak. Their much larger enclosures make up for the lower amp power and no need for onboard EQ to get the subs flat to 20Hz-12Hz, depending on the model and tune. And if you think about it, just about any sub you can consider a pre-assembled DIY sub. All they are is a woofer in a box with an amp smacked onto the other side. Whatever... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 BTW, if you absolutely need Max SPL numbers before buying a sub, then just look up the reviews of any of the SVS or HSU subs, and you'll see that most of them smoke that RW-12. In fact, the RW-12's max of 113dB @ 30Hz isn't all that impressive. My ISD/2 was recorded producing 116dB @ 18Hz in my room, and judging by the amp gain, the LFE output level, and the master volume level on my equipment, I wasn't even pushing that sub to its max yet! Hell, even SVS' little PB10-ISD is capable of hitting about 115dB around 25-30Hz. That's just a single 10" woofer with 325 watts of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 In fact, the RW-12's max of 113dB @ 30Hz isn't all that impressive. I believe that is anechoic and not done with roomgain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 SVS is a quality product revered by forum posters here for many years. I have recommended and heard quite a few of them over the years and would still recommend their tubes for DEEP bass. However, I would reverse what Buckeye man said. I think you want depth and flat frequency response accuracy for music, with mid-bass punch for movies. The punch is far more noticeable, unless you have a lot of critical music sessions and are tuning your home movie and music reproduction system for a flat response. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> You need to see an output chart to compare what kind of output they put out and at which frequencies. Sub watts are not amplifier watts (not the same measurement)![H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LousyTourist Posted May 2, 2006 Author Share Posted May 2, 2006 Maybe I should qualify the comparison. I am looking for a subwoofer that will complement my klipschorns. The sub should perform between 20 and 32Hz well, and I listen exclusively to music, so I surely do NOT want a sub that is well known as 'punchy' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Maybe I should qualify the comparison. I am looking for a subwoofer that will complement my klipschorns. The sub should perform between 20 and 32Hz well, and I listen exclusively to music, so I surely do NOT want a sub that is well known as 'punchy' The HSU will give you solid output to 18-20Hz easily. The SVS, depending on tune, will get you solid output to 14-16Hz at surprising good volume levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 First of all, some clarification...I never comment on something I haven't heard. I haven't heard HSU, so I didn't comment on them. I've heard quite a few of the SVS and know to run away. So have any of you guys ever seen the SVS "labs" or rather lack thereof. For so many years they were just slapping parts together and selling them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but are you to assume you couldn't get better performance from a company with fricken huge labs? My DIY comment about SVS is a feeling shared by every speaker engineer I've come across (and it's not because they got their drivers from TC Sounds....heck, klipsch doesn't really build their drivers either). Just because they sell direct through the internet doesn't make them more concerned about engineering. It is merely an effective business model that also happens to minimize the number of direct comparisons. Most people stepping up to SVS have had crap beforehand so of course they're going to sound great in comparison. I also find it funny that a lot of people hate the plastic klipsch is trying to use with their speakers...especially when it's an acoustically better product! But alas klipsch is butting heads with the general public and will probably never succeed in going the better route. Definetly not the first time this has happened in this hobby. And as far as my recommendation, I recommended what I thought would be the more musical option. Not everything is about crazy distorted loud low frequency extension. If you can't hear the non-linear behavior present in a down-firing driver then so be it....I am entitled to my opinion. Btw, all subwoofer manufacturers are measuring their speakers in 1/8th space in a room of some kind (or outside) since there really is no such thing as an anechoic room at the lower frequencies (the wavelengths are so big such that it's not practical to attempt building such a room). And another thing missing in all the measurements is the distortion level at that SPL and how long it was being sustained. For example, my Chorus II's combined can do a peak of 136dB with 1000W to each speaker...but it'll sound like crap and can only be achieved for a short amount of time. They really start breaking up and sounding bad at around 115dB. Nevertheless, there are rules to how companies can measure their products and there is a very good reason the smaller companies don't post maxSPL's. I don't care what customers claim to have measured because they most likely don't have very controlled test conditions or calibrated equipment - not to mention the lack of distortion measurements. Anyways, it all comes back down to whether the person enjoys their system or not. I quite honestly wouldn't be satisfied with any of these options...to the point that I wouldn't even turn on the sub. If it were me, I would save up some money for another few months and invest in something that I would want to keep for more than 2 weeks. Another side note - there is a crap load more engineering that should go into a subwoofer than just running T/S parameters and throwing the driver in a box. And it's a good sign that the extra engineering isn't being performed when a manufacturer offers a product with "multiple tuning" as if it were a good thing to do...yech[+o(] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Maybe I should qualify the comparison. I am looking for a subwoofer that will complement my klipschorns. The sub should perform between 20 and 32Hz well, and I listen exclusively to music, so I surely do NOT want a sub that is well known as 'punchy' In that case, you will find nothing in this price range that will even come close. The problem is power compression and your sub simply won't be able to track the dynamics. In order to cleanly get that extra octave (I would recommend crossing over closer to 40Hz) you will need a sub that can displace about 4x more air than both khorns combined....so that comes to about 8" peak to peak excursion from a 12" driver which just isn't gonna happen. With two 12" drivers you'll need 4" peak to peak - and again this is just to to be able to keep up with the khorns. The only thing on the market right now that comes close is the Klipsch THX Ultra2 subwoofer system. Yours for only $3500 (yikes). One alternative you might consider would be to implement an IB, which would run you around $1500. Or for around the same money you could build a single Adire Tumult. But in your situation I would be more inclined to try and implement a stereo subwoofer setup. It's a must have for dedicated 2-channel listening (which brings you back to the THX Ultra2 subs...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 I'll toss my two cents in and say that neither subwoofer you are considering will keep up with Klipschorn's if that is your intent. Unless you listen at strictly low to very moderate levels then you might be OK, otherwise you need alot more horsepower to run with the big dogs. I run two Velodyne F1500R's (FSR-15's) and up until recently had three of them, picked them up on the used market for $500 apiece. I was considering an SVS PB2+ when I was initially sub hunting a couple of years ago, but opted for the clean undistorted sound of the larger Velodyne Servo Subwoofers. The SVS was highly recommended though but I got the Velo's used for less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Most people stepping up to SVS have had crap beforehand so of course they're going to sound great in comparison. If you can't hear the non-linear behavior present in a down-firing driver then so be it....I am entitled to my opinion. Nevertheless, there are rules to how companies can measure their products and there is a very good reason the smaller companies don't post maxSPL's. I don't care what customers claim to have measured because they most likely don't have very controlled test conditions or calibrated equipment - not to mention the lack of distortion measurements. And it's a good sign that the extra engineering isn't being performed when a manufacturer offers a product with "multiple tuning" as if it were a good thing to do...yech[+o(] I for one have either owned, or have set up and listened to plenty of subs in other people's systems over the years. By my ears, I know exactly where SVS stands with the rest. Yes, I can clearly hear the difference between front-firing and down-firing subs. I too prefer front-firing. However, since I'm using the CWs full range and the subs crossed over at or below 50Hz, there is a marginal difference between the two at that point, if at all. Anyone who says they can hear a difference at those frequencies (below 50Hz) are simply displaying some BS. Apparently, you haven't read the reviews done by the mags and hifi mag websites, and I'm not referring to AudioReview either. They usually do the tests outdoors, far away from any boudaries. And they DO test for max SPL and distortion. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with multiple tuning in a design. Companies have been doing this for years! I can't remember how many loudspeakers I've seen over the years that come equipped with port plugs, both mid-fi and hi-fi, and even some ultra hi-fi loudspeakers. Personally, I for one cannot figure out why eveyone on this board believes you have all the answers to everything. But that's a whole different subject that I just won't get into and I'm definately NOT going to get into a pissing contest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Did you just say that plastic is an accousitcally better product? I'm not sure why some people are so unendingly mated to these Klipsch subs and that they're so "musical." I think in the long run it's just something they say in order to compensate for a competitor's product that can better them in SPL and extension. BTW, if a Klipsch sub is so much better engineered, then why do they cost more and sound poorer? Perhaps they should engineer a solution to that. Dr. Who...not going to argue about it. I just thought you were brighter than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay481985 Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 ABS plastic is pretty acoustically inert substance, just it needs proper bracing because it tends to flex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chops Posted May 2, 2006 Share Posted May 2, 2006 Did you just say that plastic is an accousitcally better product? I'm not sure why some people are so unendingly mated to these Klipsch subs and that they're so "musical." I think in the long run it's just something they say in order to compensate for a competitor's product that can better them in SPL and extension. BTW, if a Klipsch sub is so much better engineered, then why do they cost more and sound poorer? Perhaps they should engineer a solution to that. Dr. Who...not going to argue about it. I just thought you were brighter than that. And I'm sure there's a great ratio of people using other brand subwoofers than Klipsch subwoofers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 Yes, there are certain plastics that have better acoustical properties than wood. It's doubly good because it's waterproof and easier/cheaper to implement in large quantities. Like Jay mentioned it needs to be properly implemented and that's also not to say that all plastics are equally good either. That's what the field of materials science is for. The reason I recommended a klipsch sub is mostly because we're on the klipsch forum. But also because I think it performs better in the upper passband where it matters more. Though just an opinion, there are some physics that come to mind to support it too...but no need to go there. Most distortion is a function of cone movement - which is a bummer because cone movement is required for SPL. Nevertheless, it is at the lower frequencies where the down-firing design becomes a bigger issue simply due to the fact that the driver is moving more. In other words, the problem increases exponentially as you move down in frequency...I'd say material as low as 30Hz will be very audible. And in most normal applications with an 80Hz crossover you're looking at a compounded issue with frequency modulation distortion. In regards to the multiple tunings...there are so many optimizations that can be done in the electrical realm to squeeze a crap load more performance out of a subwoofer system. But the second you move to multiple tunings you can no longer implement any of those tricks. Things like limiters, sliding filters, servo-drive, port EQ, etc etc...I suppose one could implement a system with variable processing to match the variable port tuning, but even then you would have to make sacrifices - basically not be optimizing the design for a specific application. It's just the laws of physics. I won't even get into the port compression, chuffing and other non-linearity issues. Just because there are a lot of such designs doesn't make it a viable approach. Using that logic, all the HTIB systems should be considered optimal - afterall, they are the most common system being installed. For what it's worth I would be the first to claim that I don't have all the answers. But at the same time I shouldn't be discredited for trying to share what I've learned. Afterall, audio is both my current field of study and profession of 14 years. Nevertheless, I have no problem with differing opinions. In all honesty, something like 80% of the performance is going to be dictated by the price range (so most $600 subs are going to sound about 80% identical). By going with different models you are merely choosing a different set of trade offs; so it's either more SPL and narrower bandwidth or less SPL and wider bandwidth. Pick your poison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CAS Posted May 3, 2006 Share Posted May 3, 2006 I agree that multiple port tuning detracts from implementing other tricks, however with an enclosure as large and inert as SVS makes them it's not all that necessary to implement the tricks sometimes required on other volume-deficient, under-powered subs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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