ragjr Posted November 3, 2001 Share Posted November 3, 2001 I have both LaScalas and Belles and while I am very satisfied with their over-all sound I am wondering what they would sound like with the addition of a powered subwoofer. If I was to add one what would be a good one and would any of them integrate well with the horn loaded bass of these speakers? What about the Sunfire True Signature Subwoofer? This message has been edited by ragjr on 11-04-2001 at 12:02 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 The advantages of the basshorn of the LaScala or Belle are negated unless one uses a subwoofer capable of enourmous output and low distortion, that means a DIY sub using multiple large drivers or a ServoDrive Contrabass.The sonic advantages of basshorns are a result of the very small excursion of the bass driver, thus ideally a sub to match basshorns will have very small excursions and that means big, well controlled cones and lots of them. Hornies I know report good results with DIY subs using 4 18" JBL 2245s, another fella I know has a DIY sub using 8 15" JBL 2235s. Several fellas I know loaded up on 2245s dirt cheap at the JBL Pro tent sale running on the JBL website. Only such subs can match the dynamics, output and low distortion of basshorns. An exception is the Contrabass, the drivers of which are driven by a rotary electric motor, the twin 15s of the Contrabass are capable of huge excursions without the dynamic and distortion problems of magnetic drivers at long excursions, a pair of Contrabasses will match well with basshorns. The Carver, with it's small cone and large excursion, with resulting high distortion and crushed dynamics, is as ill-suited for use with basshorns as a speaker could possibly be. Some people on this forum, people whom I respect, have a different viewpoint and enjoy conventional turnkey subs with LSs, I wouldn't however, reckon I'm a horn purist. :-) No doubt you'll hear viewpoints opposed to mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 Tom is generally correct. You will enjoy the addition of subwoofers if they are high output and low distortion. I use 2 VMPS Larger Subs with my La Scalas. The subs are placed in corners and powered by an Acurus amp capable of more than 400 watts/channel. They seem to keep up pretty well and the distortion is low. The Larger Subwoofer has a 12" and a 15" active driver and a 15" passive radiator that's slot-loaded. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossVTaylor Posted November 4, 2001 Share Posted November 4, 2001 Ragjr, I'm using a Paradigm Servo-15 with my LaScalas, and I couldn't be happier with the combo. I had a PW-2200 for a couple of months, but the ported design just didn't mate as well as I'd like. The 2200 was great for movies, but it wasn't "fast" enough (percussive, maybe?) for music with the LaScala's horns. The sealed Servo, however, seems to be tighter and meshes very well. You almost don't know it's there, except that the LaScalas seem to dig deeper - and that's the beauty, I guess. There's no "boom" (unless I'm watching a movie and WANT the boom, of course!). I demoed the True, but not with LaScalas. However, I remember thinking that it wouldn't work well with my horns. Happy shopping, Ross ------------------ "Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 ragjr, This is a topic that's seen quite a bit of annimated debate on this bulletin board. Tom Brennan makes an excellent point - getting a subwoofer that has the same bass characteristics as a La Scala or Belle's bass horn, and thus seems to extend the bass significantly deeper and seemlessly integrate with the midbass and upper bass of the horn, is a very, very difficult proposition when you're trying to do it with "conventional" direct radiating subs, either powered or unpowered. The VMPS Larger Subwoofers that John mentions, when powered by the appropriate amp, come very close to this ideal (I used to have a pair until I moved to a new house - no room.) My feeling is very different. In my opinion, the La Scalas have NO BASS - in my room, mine roll off like a cliff below the mid-50's. I'm using an REL Storm subwoofer in my system, and from my perspective, SOME bass is better than NO bass. No, Storm won't "keep up" with the Scalas at, uh, enthusiastic levels, but I don't expect it to. I expect it to "flesh out" the lower octaves, and provide a reinforcement in the deepest bass that is totally absent without Storm. It does this VERY VERY well for ME, and I'm extremely happy with the combo of the La Scalas and REL. But bass that I find satisfactory, and enjoy very much, might sound totally unacceptable and discontinuous to others. The best thing you can do is figure out a way to borrow, or evaluate on loan, a (decent) powered sub, and see what YOU think. I wouldn't dream of turning off Storm and listening to the La Scalas without her; I enjoy the system far too much with Storm in the loop. Tom, I expect, could take listening to my system in my room set up my way for about a minute before he wanted to throw her out the window. You'll have to find out for yourself which way you come down on this question. Should be fun finding out, though! Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragjr Posted November 5, 2001 Author Share Posted November 5, 2001 I want to thank all of you for your helpful response to my question about subs. Although I know it is fairly new, I wonder if anyone believes that the new Reference subwoofer from Klipsch would make a good mate with the Heritage line of loudspeakers. In particular the LaScala or Belle. Any thoughts would be appreciated? Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 The RSW-15 was VERY impressive when used in a 5.1 system with Jubilees as mains, K-horns (or a series of Heresies) as rears and a Belle as a center. It had the output capability to match the Jubilees. When pushed really hard, its distortion was probably higher than optimum, but it was not objectionable. At sane levels it sounded nice and it could move air! I'd have one. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEAR Posted November 5, 2001 Share Posted November 5, 2001 I agree with TBrennan,large horn loaded speakers need larger subs with efortless power output(low distortion). I use several Sunfire subs(from the tiny Junior to the bass monster Signature)to minimise the cone movement.The results are very positive with my RF-7. Speakers like the LaScala and Belle would no doubt benefit from two Sunfire Signatures.Two of these subs can put out enormous SPL down to 20Hz.These subs need to be cut very low(under 60Hz to work well)and placed against a wall(no need for corner placement). Sure you could get better results with a pair of SVS Ultras driven by a Bryston 4B-ST.The SVS/Bryston combo would outperform just about any sub under 10 grand. The Ultras dont have a built in amp so you can match them with many good SS amps.The Bryston is a natural top choice since few can match a Bryston in the bass. After you are looking at designs like the Contrabass and some pro horn loaded subs(most cut off around 30Hz)could no doubt even surpass the max SPL you could ever get from the Belle and LaScala!These are ugly BIG boxes and dont fit too well in a home. I know one audiophile who uses PRO horns and horn loaded subs at home.Needless to say the dynamics are beyond what a human sould stand(even for a few seconds). The DIY can bring you the joy of building a sub yourself but you often need large drivers and many of them in ..very large boxes.Driven by some good external amp. For me the logical choice would be two Sunfire Signatures or two SVS Ultras driven by a Bryston 4B-ST. Very compact and you get more sub bass then you will ever use(unless you are like me and like to blast the system from time to time to LOUD the house is ready to take off). TheEAR(s) Now theears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 Ray---Indeed the LaScala is bass-shy, a friend of mine is forced to use his (recently bought for only $550, such a deal) well away from the walls and measures the bass dropping off at 100 cycles. He is VERY disappointed with the speakers. He just bought some big JBL Pro 3-ways from the JBL online Tent Sale; each speaker has a proline 15, I forget which one, a horn loaded 8" cone mid and a 2426 on a CD horn for the highs. Get this, only $330 each!!! Just the 2426 is $250 at Parts Express. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eq_shadimar Posted November 6, 2001 Share Posted November 6, 2001 I am by no means an audio expert and the folks that have already answered you question are more knowledgeable than I. However I have Cornwalls and a 20-39CS SVS subwoofer and I really like it. Laters, ------------------ ...wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world... My Home Theater Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragjr Posted November 8, 2001 Author Share Posted November 8, 2001 Well, I took Ray Garrison's advice and have a REL Storm III at home on demo. So far, I am pretty impressed by it and it seems to blend in rather easily with the LaScalas. There is a lot of low end in most of the music that I was missing totally. By the way, I realize rooms will vary, but Ray could you tell me where you have all of your settings on your REL. Thanks Much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 uh, no, I can't. Storm is sitting in the left front corner of the music room, and she's behind some wifely furniture bits and a rather fragile looking steel and glass etagere with various breakables on it. To adjust Storm, I have to reach around on my tippy-toes and feel around on the back. I have Storm wired in parallel with the La Scalas, using the REL-supplied cable with the Neutrik connector on the subwoofer end. I adjusted the gain and crossover settings by ear. I used the Stereophile Test CD #3 and a Radio Shack SPL meter to get a rough idea of where the crossover and volume ought to be, but wasn't happy with the sound of the system. I wound up using mostly well-recorded pop material, particularly Peter Gabriel - "Don't Give Up" from the So album is an excellent tool for subwoofer balancing. When I got it adjusted so that Peter's voice wasn't altered (sounds too "chesty" when the sub's crossing over too a too high a frequency or set at too high a volume level) but the bass was nicely extended and taut, everything seemed to click into place. I *** THINK *** I have the corse volume control set one click up from the lowest setting, and the fine control up two clicks, but I'm not really certain. I have no idea where the volume control is set - I just messed with it until I liked the way it sounded. I simply can't see Storm's back panel. My room is a bit, uh, unusual... we live in what I have started calling an "open contemporary" 'cause I don't know what else to call it. It's basically a tri-level two story house, with the music room and master bedroom on the lowest level, a dining room and entry foyer (woo hoo) on the middle level, and the kitchen and two other bedrooms on the upper level. There are no walls separating the three levels, just open bannisters and rails. Standing in the dining room you can look up a half a story into the kitchen, or down a half a story into the music room. The music room is on a concrete slab, with a tile floor, about 17 feet wide by 21 feet long. The volume Storm loads is, effectively, the entire house, though, 'cause of the open design. All of which means that it was a ***** and a half to figure out where to position Storm and the La Scalas to get them to sound good in the music room. Some locations resulted in NO BASS WHATSOEVER in the music room, but great galloping gobs of bass upstairs in the kitchen. Go figure. So even if I could tell you exactly how I have'er set up, I bet it wouldn't work for anyone else living in a quasi-normal house. Ray, always willing to provide long winded and rambling answers to simple questions. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dougdrake2 Posted November 8, 2001 Share Posted November 8, 2001 Ray - I sincerely hope I have a chance to meet you, perhaps on the Klipsch Klub tour. Your posts indicate an eclectic mix of interests (Rolling Stones at 105db before work?? Your daughter must think you're the bomb!) and your writing style truly entertains and informs. I especially like the home-spun adjectives: "great galloping gobs of bass." Thanks for being here! Sounds like you live in what we used to call a split-level (from my late 60's/early 70's days in NY state). I can picture yours exactly. Reminds me of the house on The Brady Bunch!! Does Alice jam to the Stones, too? Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Doug, Thanks for the kind words. I, too, would like to meet the folks with whom we interact on this board, but I can't see myself making the trek to Hope (new startrek series? Tell Berman you heard it here first...) anytime soon... as CTO of a struggling dot com (like there's any other kind) my family is operating on a, er, constrained budget. I lived in a split level in Downers Grove, Illinois back when I was in grammer school. The current abode has some similarities, but it has more "common volume" that the traditional split level. For example, there's a cathedral ceiling that starts at the front of the house where the entryway is, rises over the dining room, and continues in one large unbroken expanse over the kitchen toward the rear of the house. If you stand in the music room on the side adjacent to the dining room and look straight up, you'd see the ceiling stretching from the dining room to the kitchen about 18 feet over your head. I keep saying I'm gonna take some pictures and post them here, but I keep forgetting to borrow the interface cable for my daughter's digital camera. I'll try and remember sometime next week. ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Doug, I agree with you 100%. Whenever I see a post by Ray, I feel compelled to read it. I know it will be well thought out and well written... and if I was a little smarter, I would probably learn from it as well. You can generally count on getting a chuckle from it also... Mike ------------------ My Music Systems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Chuckles might make a good nick for Ray...yea! I like it! Ray "Chuckles" (No Life) Garrison I guess this is getting a tad off topic...sorry! ------------------ Ed W This message has been edited by edster00 on 11-09-2001 at 03:16 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 "Chuckles"? Hummm..... http://news-journalonline.com/2001/Sep/6/NOTE4.htm maybe not... ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 Ray, LMAO! Where do you find this stuff? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted November 9, 2001 Share Posted November 9, 2001 LOL Ray! Mike, Ray is, afterall, the CTO of a struggling dot com...he is required to research this stuff! I'm beginning to think there may be something "fishy" about Ray's job BTW. ------------------ Ed W This message has been edited by edster00 on 11-09-2001 at 05:33 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragjr Posted November 21, 2001 Author Share Posted November 21, 2001 So, I bought the Rel Storm III to mate with my LaScalas and a McIntosh MA6500 integrated amp. They sound absolutely perfect. Went back to the store and bought another to team with my Belles and a Conrad Johnson Premier 11A tube amp. Not at all happy with the outcome. Tried all kinds of different settings for several hours and just couldnt get it to integrate well. Right now it is in the back seat of my car to take back to the store. Any thoughts? I really hate to let it go, but what can you do if it doesnt do the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.