Duke Spinner Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 developed voice coil rubs from deterioration of the coil former. Heat, deteriorating the former, or glue, Bob ..??????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I am saying (rather I've been told) that this notion of putting in "new" everything does not ensure getting the speaker any closer to spec than just staying with the old components. It's one thing to replace a broken part, but these speakers were designed to keep sounding good as they age. Might I enquire the basis for determining the need to replace/mod everything? Don't believe everything your told - for instance, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you! If its old, for example a pair of Khorns, i.e., 20 years and older, I would automatically assume several things: 1) the driver has been hanging vertically in one position for all that time and has never been rotated on its mount (at least its a reasonably safe assumption). 2) the magnet has lost some of its flux over time. 3) there may be dirt/dust in the VC gap. 4) the wires (mostly copper) have been exposed to oxygen for that time. 5) the solder connections have oxidized. 6) the crossover components have deteriorated. 7) the design of the midrange horn has been superceded by better designs. 8) the quality of the Atlas midrange driver is not that great to begin with 9) the VC may have become magnetized 10) the VC is off center due to cone sag or otherwise out-of-spec 11) the cone accordian suspension is hardened or otherwise brittle or stiffened by time Any of these is ample reason in my opinion to freshen the components at the very least up to current factory specs using new replacement parts, either from the factory or aftermarket sources. The idea that these things age gracefully with time is completely bogus in scientific terms, and sounds like a sales-pitch to me. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 developed voice coil rubs from deterioration of the coil former. Heat, deteriorating the former, or glue, Bob ..??????? Duke, What I was talking about was the former cracking and little slivers dragging on the voice coil gap. Did not look like it had been hot. I do know what caused it. Old age perhaps? Now they are different material. Kapton I think. The only one I have dissected that had been ruined from over power, had actually had the voice coil come all the way out of the gap and stick there. It did not look like it had been hot. I won't tell you whose woofer that was, but his initials are TC. Bob Crites Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 "I am saying (rather I've been told) that this notion of putting in "new" everything does not ensure getting the speaker any closer to spec than just staying with the old components. It's one thing to replace a broken part, but these speakers were designed to keep sounding good as they age.Might I enquire the basis for determining the need to replace/mod everything?" Not sure I am entirely onboard here either, but there is no doubt Klipsch designs their product to age well, however electronic component manufacturers do not plan on their component lasting beyond given period of time, they simply cannot the very act of passing current through a device ages thus degrades it over time. The repair I am referring to is refreshing/replacing components to restore the original spec That does guarantee you maintain that spec as closely as possible. I do not necessarily feel you should automatically upgrade everything but if your networks are over 20 their caps are likely out of spec. ESR increases and that robs efficiency, the component has not actually failed and will likely work for years to come but it will not maintain its original specification. Thus replacing/refreshing the caps do improve the performance of the speaker system.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 There are hobbies for which restoration is desireable - say cars, or pinball machines - but this is not one of those hobbies....I am being nice here, please don't misconstrue my meaning. Chris OOOHHHH... there are Collector's .... ' that would love to burn you ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 1) the driver has been hanging vertically in one position for all that time and has never been rotated on its mount (at least its a reasonably safe assumption). -and you've measured this and the corresponding affect on performance? IF an issue it can be easily remedied by a rotation - no need for new stuff. 2) the magnet has lost some of its flux over time. -again, have you measured this and the audible affect? 3) there may be dirt/dust in the VC gap. -audible effect? certainly doesn't require a driver replacement to fix either. 4) the wires (mostly copper) have been exposed to oxygen for that time. -ok? 5) the solder connections have oxidized. -audible? who cares, it's an easy repair. 6) the crossover components have deteriorated. -how so and where are the measurements? and what are the end results? It's interesting how changes in the crossover correspond to the declining magnetic flux...and how do you know that the replacements are doing any better? 7) the design of the midrange horn has been superceded by better designs. -if you're talking about moving to a different type of midrange horn then you aren't talking about the same speaker at all. And surely PWK would have moved to a better design for the speaker he poured his life into had one been exceptionally better. (well...I guess he did make the Jubilee....) 8) the quality of the Atlas midrange driver is not that great to begin with -oh really...how specifically is the performance lacking? And how much would it cost to correct versus addressing other aspects in the big picture? (hmmm, source material, room acoustics, etc etc...) 9) the VC may have become magnetized -ok? and you've measured this and it's audible impact? Though I'm pretty sure copper isn't magnetic... 10) the VC is off center due to cone sag or otherwise out-of-spec -and you've measured this and its effect on performance? 11) the cone accordian suspension is hardened or otherwise brittle or stiffened by time -if anything it would become looser as the molecular bonds weaken over time. I'm not trying to be annoying, nor do I disagree with the plausibility of any of the proposed issues. But by this logic you should replace your drivers every year - lest something go the slightest bit "out of spec". If you sit down and measure the actual performance of an "old" speaker you'll find it is still usually within the original spec tolerances - or very close...and can be fixed without spending crap loads on new everything. I think a lot of people would be surprised just how wide normal manufacturing tolerances actually are...who knows, maybe aging has brought an out of spec speaker closer to spec...the whole point is you can't know for sure unless you sit down and measure - and to my knowledge nobody on this forum has ever measured any of this crap. They just get it in their head all the things that can change and then decide they make an audible difference - without actually verifying it. So provide measurements and I'll shut up and go tuck my tail into the corner. I know people that have actually made the measurements - and the response is to leave it alone. To claim they are merely giving a sales pitch and essentially lying is rude and makes one wonder how one can be a fan of such an untrustworthy company. The only time I'd start worrying about replacing parts is when the left and right speakers start sounding different. If the audibility of "wearing out" is actually significant, then one would not expect both the left and right to continue sounding identical considering they should most definetly age differently. I can't think of anything in this world where things age identically. Heck, anybody ever performed any side by side tests between old and new speakers? Last I heard the C3 and C1 sounded pretty darn similar with minor nuances in favor of the C3 - though even then people claimed minor tradeoffs between the two...and the parts going in the C3 are that much better! go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 developed voice coil rubs from deterioration of the coil former. Heat, deteriorating the former, or glue, Bob ..??????? Duke, What I was talking about was the former cracking and little slivers dragging on the voice coil gap. Did not look like it had been hot. I do know what caused it. Old age perhaps? Now they are different material. Kapton I think. The only one I have dissected that had been ruined from over power, had actually had the voice coil come all the way out of the gap and stick there. It did not look like it had been hot. I won't tell you whose woofer that was, but his initials are TC. Bob Crites Bob HHmmmmnnnn ...TC .... home of the 122dB ... meltdown, Terry ..??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Who, who said you have to replace your drivers every year? - that's a bit excessive seems to me that anyone would agree. Where did you come up with this? Also, if its 20 years old or older, it needs to be replaced because it IS out-of-spec, I will guarantee you. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 Who, who said you have to replace your drivers every year? - that's a bit excessive seems to me that anyone would agree. Where did you come up with this? Also, if its 20 years old or older, it needs to be replaced because it IS out-of-spec, I will guarantee you. And how do you know how long it takes to go outta spec? What happens if I find a 20 year old driver that is nowhere close to outta spec? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-MAN Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I have already stated some of the potential causes, and to answer your question of what I would do with old ones not-out-of-spec (not very likely), I would sell them to someone else who thinks that older is better and put in new ones, such as Bob Crites new version "old" ones. DM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 BEC said... Yeah, some people buy an old car and immediately change the old tires, brake pads, fuel and oil filters and even the spark plugs. Then it isn't vintage any more. ===================== Now bob... jesus.. you know exactly what I mean, and I have sent you business to check if they are within specs, and IF they wanted to look into going the upgrade route.. you alk dean have always been suggestions.. (So why the slamm???) I met you last weekend, you seemed like a nice guy, I thought the comment was a slam.. As far as the vintage car is concerned, of course you would do that... but with parts designed FOR THAT CAR if it meant something to you to keep it a classic.. ..........I met you last weekend, you seemed like a nice guy, ........ Having known Bob for a few years, and...........Well, you simply misjudged him Indy. He is not a nice guy. Bob is a contrary and disagreeable old rascal. He is "old-school" and "very progressive" at the same time. He is a wealth of information, but don't ask for his opinion unless you are prepaired to hear it. BEC is a great resource & asset to both the PWK purest and the DIY-Mod crew. Our troops in Irac think it is dry? Try Bobs humor. Im sure that he meant no "slam". But hell, with BEC, who knows? Regards, Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 So there are 3 distinct routes to audio Nirvana... 1) no updates whatsoever (old = vintage sound) 2) update with currently available components (factory specs) 3) modify the hell out of them (hot rod) So we all fall into one of the above categories. Simple. Problem is you can't do 2 or 3 well without good measuring equipment. And you are very unlikely to arrive at anything better than 1 without it either. And I don't fall into any of the categories, now what? What are you talking about - using factory spec components needing test gear? I guess you're right - putting in a new K33E requires a bench full of test equipment. You are correct - you ARE in a category all your own. DM Ahummm. LMAO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I have already stated some of the potential causes, and to answer your question of what I would do with old ones not-out-of-spec (not very likely), I would sell them to someone else who thinks that older is better and put in new ones, such as Bob Crites new version "old" ones. DM Coming Attractions.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I am saying (rather I've been told) that this notion of putting in "new" everything does not ensure getting the speaker any closer to spec than just staying with the old components. It's one thing to replace a broken part, but these speakers were designed to keep sounding good as they age. Might I enquire the basis for determining the need to replace/mod everything? .........."I am saying (rather I've been told) that this notion of putting in "new" everything does not ensure getting the speaker any closer to spec than just staying with the old components. And who told that to you son............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IB Slammin Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I just wanted to mention one more thing too... It's not like the klipsch engineers sit idly by while they watch everyone mod the crap outta their stuff...they are rather open-minded (the first time) and have done a few measurements of their own with all their fancy equipment. It's quite interesting what they have to say on this topic - so if you get the chance ask one of them what they think. I'm not sure if any of them want me quoting them on the forum. ...." I'm not sure if any of them want me quoting them on the forum.".....Smooth, Kiss-Kiss and they work for what firm..........IBM is it? Granted, Roy is a stand-up guy. It's just that the Jub bin is $4,500 per pair, not $2,600, and the finish is only available in crinkle flat black, not unfinished. If unfinished, one might be able to, (with many hours of wood filler, sanding, and priming) get them into an acceptable looking home speaker. WWPS! (what would Paul say) I will have bumper stickers made next week. tc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I have already stated some of the potential causes... You're missing the point...you have no proof of any of these potential causes. They are just pretty theories that hold absolutely no weight until it can be verified. And ultimately it should be expected that these issues be different in every situation. How do you know when a driver has gone bad? For what it's worth PWK, Jim Hunter, Roy Delgado, Rich Fields, Mark Blanchard, and Trey are just a few of the sources. There's a few others, but they hold less weight in the audio circles. To put it another way, y'all are focusing on all the non-issues and completely missing the bigger picture. It's like trying to get that square inch of window as clean as possible when the rest of it is coated in mud. I seriously would love to do some blind testing...I have no doubt that differences will be heard, but to claim one as being "more correct" will never happen and is completely subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 That looks like a real basket case Bob.[] Do tell. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 I shall not be appearing in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEC Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 That looks like a real basket case Bob.[] Do tell. Rick I have accepted the samples and ordered a production run. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popbumper Posted June 23, 2006 Share Posted June 23, 2006 There are hobbies for which restoration is desireable - say cars, or pinball machines - but this is not one of those hobbies....I am being nice here, please don't misconstrue my meaning. Chris OOOHHHH... there are Collector's .... ' that would love to burn you ...... As soon as 1957 Chevies that are 100% original, from rusty floors, to fan belts, to cracked windshields, to bald tires, to pitted chrome, to faded paint jobs begin to win first prize trophies at car shows, I'll turn my thoughts away from restoration. Until then, please introduce me to the collectors who proudly own and display these faulted gems.... Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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