Refreshing AAs

[Erik Mandaville]

Dean:

"Sure it does"

Sure it does not.

On what research are you basing the 99% out of 100 figure? Has statistical research been done on this subject that I'm not aware of? Can you please direct me to the source of your information?

"As far as variations on the A types go, I said I enjoy mine very much -- but I only use them for low volume listening. They certianly wouldn't be my networks of choice if I could only have one set."

That's fine. Choose whatever network you want. Your choice and preference really has nothing to do with my own. What is it about the 'A' that you like for low volume that doesn't work for you at higher SPLs? What happens when your mood suddenly changes and you want to listen to Tool or Audio slave instead of Baroque lute music? Maybe it would be worthwhile to find and use a network that works well for both styles, though doesn't necessary excel at one or the other.

Erik

[Al Klappenberger]

Eric,

Take it from me, and my 30 year of experinece at L-C filter design. The AA measures bad, analyzes bad in the computer and it IS bad. It violates every basic rule for a multiplexer. I will itimize the rules it breakes if you care to see the list! You can show that network to anybody who has any experience with multiplexer design and they will tell you the same thing. It would be laughed at! A crossover network IS a multiplexer. The A and AA both are simply the minimum that will work in a Khorn and protect the tweeter from overload in the case of the AA. That is all PWK wanted it to do. This is the sort of thing manufacturers strive for. It is how you maximize profits. It gets by simply becasue the rest of the speaker makes up fo it! To go to all the trouble to overhaul it is silly when you can put your money into a better design. You don't have to buy it from me. The design for my original ALK is right on my web site for anybody to build himself! The difference will be obvious even when listening through mechanical transducers! The AA was super for Klipsch, but for people like us who are interested in squeezing evey little bit we can from our "babies" it just makes no sence to continue with it. If you really want a better speaker, replace it with a true, correctly designed network.

Al K.

[colterphoto1]

So am I an idiot for spending money on new A/AA's?

I thought I was coming to a reasonable understanding on this because of Tom's thoughtful posts.

It seems that every time the sellers of networks get into a thread, the confusion level skyrockets and once again- I am doing NOTHING to my 22 Heritage speakers until I come to a good understanding of the cost/benefit of any replacment/ refurbishment.

This is seriously starting to be no fun.

Michael

[Daddy Dee]

I'd like to share a couple of observations and share a word about the context of this discussion. I will not be speaking to the relative value of the various kinds of networks.

First, my take on this thread is that there is an argument going on about which is better:

APPLES OR ORANGES!!!

In the possibilities of resolving the problem, that is: What to do about old worn out AA (or other) crossovers? There are two possible answers. (there are actually more than two, but for the sake of this discussion I offer these)

Option 1: Restore

Option 2: Upgrade

The energy in this thread indicates to me the distance between these apples and oranges alternatives.

Dean and Al, IMO, what you guys offer are upgrades and alternatives to the original designs. This is great. What I am wondering about is the energy that is evoked from you guys when someone "restores" (not upgrades) their old worn out crossovers and are pleased with the results.

What I'd suggest is that someone being pleased with hearing, perhaps for the first time, how good Klipsch speakers sound at something approximating factory spec (as well as perhaps being pleased with their results in a DIY project) is not a threat to what you guys do, which is provide upgrades and alternatives to the old factory spec.

From my personal knowleges of you two guys, I know that In advocating for what you guys do... upgrades/alternative not restore... that you do not intend any disrespect for someone who is experiencing, perhaps for the first time, the impact of a restored crossover on the sound they are hearing. Reading your posts in this and other threads has caused me to wonder if others might think you are disrespecting others who do not yet know the "truth" about crossover design and what is possible in squeezing out the last bit of possible performance.

If I could offer an automotive comparison from my experience... when I was in school I had one car that I had to open the hood and start with a screwdriver to jump a bad solenoid and later a car that started with a key, but had no second gear or reverse. I lived like this for longer than I want to remember. Anyway, I was delighted to finally get a car that would simply get me from point A to point B dependably. The car for which I was thankful, by being simply dependable, was not a "fine" car by many standards, except from my earlier perspective. There were still the Beamers and Benzes out there, and they have always been finely engineered automobiles and offered a genuinely better driving experience. Trust me on this, my appreciation for a car that just worked right was no threat to the people who designed, sold or drove the really fine cars.

One more point I'd like to make is that I think it is both reasonable and helpful for you guys to have customers who know what their speakers sound like at factory spec. It might "save" someone a few dollars if they don't refresh their old caps and jump right into high end crossovers. The cost of a few inexpensive caps, though is small compared to the cost of buying one of you guys high end crossovers. Establishing a base line sound for one's vintage heritage speakers at or near factory spec makes sense to me. To make case that your high end crossovers sound better than factory spec, which you guys do, has alot of class and offers the possibility of getting the last bit of performance possible.

Your responses to these folks who are just trying to get their old car running, for now at least, do not reflect what I know to be true about you guys, that you have a deep respect and appreciation for PWK and what he did. It's not that his stuff can't be improved upon, of course, and that you guys don't offer possibilities for improving on the standard. I don't think you guys want to take away the joy of someone who is just now experiencing the quality of the standard, because they are not yet improving upon it.

You don't want people to use your crossovers out of ignorance do you? It is a feather in your cap when someone who knows the standard factory spec sound comes to appreciate what you guys do.

Its apples and oranges guys. You have the experience, knowledge and maturity to know the difference. This thread reminds me of the old SET and PP flames where the PP fans who don't like SET make it clear that it much it annoys them that anyone likes SET.

In the words of HDBRBuilder... "play nice".

[Erik Mandaville]

Al:

"The AA measures bad, analyzes bad in the computer and it IS bad. It violates every basic rule for a multiplexer."

My understanding of the situation is beyond this, Al. That the AA is virtually a failure of a design has already been established.

I also am already aware of your level of experience. However (and I'm sorry) but when it comes to individual preferences and subjective choices, those factors become really sort of meaningless. It's really not very complex. Filet mignon is also said to be a prime cut of meat because it is both very tender and lean. It is also one of the most expensive cuts of meat. I like flank steak which, even though less tender, still has very good texture if it's not over cooked, and the flavor is IMO superior to that of the much more costly cut. What can I say? I like it.

Have a good day!

Hey, I just thought of something: Have you ever considered a 'road show' for your universal replacement or ES networks -- similar to what was done with the JM Peach preamp? It's kind of an expensive 'shot in the dark' to just plunk down the cash to build a pair of either type based on specs and measurement alone. How a crossover sounds is far more important to me than its measured response or whether it breaks every rule for a multiplexer.

Erik

[Al Klappenberger]

"It seems that every time the sellers of networks get into a thread, the confusion level skyrockets and once again"

Education always casues confusion at the beginning. Before Christopher columbus discovered the Western hemisphere there was no confusion at all in Europe about where the edge of the Earth was either! I am the only person on this forum who realizes the limitation of the AA. Who else here would know it? You shoud be gratefull for this confusion! Remember that I was a filter designer for years before this forum came on-line. I began by doing the design for the origianl "ALK" and posting it for anybody who wants it to duplicate it. I became a "network seller" becasue the forum members started sending me money to build them! Should I be building them for the good of society and making no money on it? Carl Marx whould have thought so and the Soviet Union fell apart under the same phylosophy. It's the american way to profit from your ideas! I am actually here to help, not to sell networks. That happens as a natural course of events. I am helping here by pointing out a better route to take in improving your speakers. If you do it yourself, I like that. If you can't and want me to do it for you, I'm happy with that too! The fact is, building netwroks is now back to a sideline and I am up to my ears in orders becasue I am now working 3 days a week at K&L Microwave (The worlds largest filter company) here in Salisbury doing L-C filter designs. I make more money doing that then building networks! I also make more money selling PCFILT filter design software than by making netwroks. I am here to help, not to sell networks! Selling networks is just gravy!

AL K

Take a look: http://www.klmicrowave.com/ Click the "Lumped components" tab on the right.

[colterphoto1]

Al, you take my comments incorrectly. I do not begrude you a profit for your work, I'm not against selling non-Klipsch engineered materials here on the Forum.

But I cannot afford to double the cost of many of my Klipsch Heritage speakers to upgrade them all to your standards. That you and other designers pan the original designs, refurbished or not, makes me wonder if you like Klipsch products at all.

I just can't come to terms with the outlay without having some better knowledge of the results. I guess it's part of the pain of having a system that I'm very happy with and trying to rationalize the expenditure of hundreds of dollars for an incremental upgrade. No I don't know what I'm missing and probably never will at this rate.

And now I'm told by you that my very first plunge into this arena, my purchase of new A/AA's for my LS was basically a waste of money on an antiquated, faulty (?) design? No wonder I don't want to possibly repeat the error.

Tom's idea of $22 per box is looking better and better. I think I'll leave the original designs alone unless someone wants to send me a single CW xover of whatever design on a 'loaner' basis so I can A/B it.

Just for kicks, how much would a pair of ALK's for CW's cost in kit form?

Michael

[PrestonTom]

So am I an idiot for spending money on new A/AA's?

I thought I was coming to a reasonable understanding on this because of Tom's thoughtful posts.

It seems that every time the sellers of networks get into a thread, the confusion level skyrockets and once again- I am doing NOTHING to my 22 Heritage speakers until I come to a good understanding of the cost/benefit of any replacment/ refurbishment.

This is seriously starting to be no fun.

Michael

Michael,

This is exactly the situation I was in and it is exactly why I started the thread. However, the discussion does get contentious.

There are several re-designs avaliable. These include, the ALK, the John Warren re-design, the John Albright re-design, Klipsch versions - AK series (which may need to altered to accomodate older drivers), plus several suggested on other sites. Why does this argument simply settle on ALK versus whatever. Although the ALK network (various versions) has some nice features, the sample to choose from really is much larger.

The problem is basic. How to decide how good the performance might be without actually listening to them ahead of time? Add to this the issue of using "botique" parts, or simply doing a refurbishment. We pretty much know the prices. But to determine value we need to divide the performance by the price. Again it is the numerator that we do not know.

Some have suggested we rely on testimonials regarding the performance. This is not so simple since we have individual tastes & goals. Additonally it is not so that simple because these percepts are difficult to put into words. When I read comments comparing the A to AA (with or without fancy parts), and I see comments about the "bass becoming more solid" etc., then a red flag goes up (how you high pass at the tweeter has nothing to do with the output 4 octaves below - and it is not worth debating about). So I am l skeptical of the anecdotes. Although I believe folks are sincere in their comments, it is just tricky business.

Let me give my perspective on replacing old caps with decent new caps. Yes, there was an improvement. Was it real: Yes. Was it dramatic: No, not really.

Further factor in the cost. Was it a good value (performance / price): Yes. Since I did not go broke doing this I can always do something better next time. I am suggesting a $21 investment (for a set of two). This is less than it costs to take my girlfriend out to the movies.

Everyone is discussing crossovers but they are also ignoring some other features that should be consisdered. The focus is how on the spectral overlap is handled between drivers and what the amp "sees". There are other issues also. 1) The dispersion characteristics of each driver at the point of crossover. 2) The stability of phase at the region of crossover of each driver and 3) the degree and nature of distortion in the drivers at the region of crossover. These are also important points and are not being discussed. Perhaps this is due to the fact that some other kinds of measurement would be required that most of us do not have access to.

When it comes to horns, then there is an additional issue of differing propagation delay. Time alignment could be very useful to incorporate in the crossover. Perhpas with the steep slope networks advocated then the benefit may not be as great, but that is an empirical question. There is also an issue about how precise the time alignment needs to be (i.e., what is, or is not, audible). I won't even bring up the research on this one since when the notion of "group delay" was mentioned in the past, it lead to much anger but not much education.

So I sympathesize with Al, these are complicated issues and not always easily explained without a blackboard and equations. But even what has been discussed so far, barely touches all the factors. In my own world, I would save the money and invest in DSP on the digital signal (prior to the first DAC). This could help (but not fully cure) room problems, split the signal and provide some filtering with decent slopes, and provide some time re-alignment followed by 2 or 3 reasonably priced amps then to my K-Horns. I think this is a better and more complete goal. But until I get there, I need to save my money.

Hey why not refresh the caps today and tackle the other stuff the next day.

Good Luck,

-Tom

[PrestonTom]

It posted twice...

[Erik Mandaville]

Michael:

You didn't wast your money on the AA/A replacements you purchased. I would suggest trying to refresh the others you have with new capacitors, such as Solen, or even less expensive and common mylar types can work well. I've also used the motor run oil and poly caps, and they are excellent capacitors for crossovers.

You can also try some different air-core inductors in the woofer circuit, which don't have to cost very much -- of even wind them yourself. Check www.partsexpress.com or www.madisound.com. www.tubesandmore.com is another source. You don't need high voltage capacitors for this application, either.

I have used Solens in networks for many years, but have also designed and built my own with Hovlands and other more expensive film types in the HF branch.

It would not take me very long to build a pair of ES networks either. I've been tempted to do that fairly recently, but they are very expensive. If I could audition a pair first, that would be helpful, but right now I can't risk the cost for them -- or really much else at this point. I have some tube sockets to buy for a pair of amps I'm building, and after that have to just go into a holding pattern for awhile. Until then, the stock type 'A' or in my case, the version with the midrange series inductor for Bob's new tweeter, is sounding extremely good.

If you want to re-do some of the other networks you have with new capacitors, and find it difficult (it's really not with a couple of hours of soldering practice), send them to me and I'll do the work for you for free. They are very straightforward designs, and would not take much time at all.

Erik

PS: I been searching all over the place of one of the audio subscriptions I was reading when in the hospital for a few days last month. I think I've already recycled the one that had this information, but virtually every speaker system that was reviewed had crossovers built around very low, 6db/octave slope networks. A reviewer in one case also commented on the fact that he understood the concept behind certain types of impedance compensation circuitry, but always tended to find that they sort of robbed the music of some of its life and immediacy. I tend to feel that way too, but would of course be open to changing my opinion if I had the chance to hear something that would convince me otherwise.

[Guest " "]

It seems that every time the sellers of networks get into a thread, the confusion level skyrockets and once again- I am doing NOTHING to my 22 Heritage speakers until I come to a good understanding of the cost/benefit of any replacment/ refurbishment.

This is seriously starting to be no fun.

Michael

I really like this thread at the start. Very clear objective, full disclosure of methodology, excellent pictures, a very good post.

Unfortunately you hit the nail right on the head.

I don't mind and certainly welcome input from every view point. But some times I feel like there is a band of service providers on this forum who often join forces and pound the crap out of the efforts of good DIY folks. They often have no idea who they are talking to, what their back grounds are, and what reasources are avaialble to them.

I certainly am thankful for all the veiwpoints that exist on this forum. But come on, this is an excellent post about how to DIY with a handful of parts, at a very reasonable cost. Let's not discourage these type of post by pounding it with issues outside of the clearly stated objective and the scope introduced by the author.

[colterphoto1]

Erik, thank you for your words and very kind offer.

However I am a pretty handy guy and would derive a great amount of satisfaction for the 'tinkering factor' on this project. I'd like to graduate one day to building some custom crossovers (I have a pair of Bag End PA cabs that are bi-amp only now, would like to set them up). So I think I'll tackle the project myself once the decision has been reached.

I think that I am coming to the mindset to accept the original crossover designs as technically acceptable to my ears and to retain them because of my allegience to PWK and the company's principles. Nuf said on that issue.

So I need to refurbish parts that have ages. I have no qualms with this arguement either. Whether the capacitors need to be wholesale gutted or tested for spec and selectively replaced, I think that if any of them have drifted, it would behoove me to replace all of them. Not only becaus the others can't be far behind, but in the case of my CW's, I have an army of 9 of them, of which at least 5 will be used for my future Theatre setup, and therefore should be as identical as reasonably possible. This particularly is where the economics of Tom's approach comes into play.

Now for the shopping. Should I use the original type Motor Start caps, which I could probably obtain locally at a Grainger outlet (they seem good enough for BEC, who put them in the new AA/A's I purchased). Or is there any value at all in tolerance, reliablity, or other spec that would indicate that another type should be used?

I'm ready to cut the purchase order. I only need two values to make my CW's happy!

Michael

[BEC]

Michael,

Grainger has discontinued the GE motor run caps I use, but your local store may still have some in stock. Grainger now stocks a "Dayton" brand of motor run cap that replaces the GEs they stocked before. The Daytons are not quite as good as the GEs in testing, but probably good enough.

Bob Crites

[Erik Mandaville]

Michael:

I'm sure you could handle this on your own, and it can be fun way to spend some well-spent time.

On the cap choice: Well, that is another point of contention. Factory paper on the motor run caps have indicated non-suitability of HF use, but from my recollection does not indicate what sort of HF -- there is some very,very high frequency application out there, and normal hi-fi audio is not that.

These types of capacitors are also used in amplifier circuitry both in PSUs, but also more recently in some SET amp designs that use a certain type of output connection associate with the output tube cathode. Oil types, and the motor run variety is what was used for this, were found in one case to have greater sensitivity to mor minute voltage fluctuations than other kinds, such as film and foil types. For audio use, and especially in crossovers, I think they are excellent. They are not the cheapest available, though. Lots of people have used them, and not only in Klipsch speakers, either.

What Bob does is kind of neat, IMO, in that these crossovers are really the closest in terms o direct replacement for the Heritage series. This DOES NOT at all mean that they are thus a compromise in performance because of it, either. They work well.

The problem in choosing is that there are piles of caps out there from which to choose. Even radio shack sells a poly type in 1uf values with suitable voltage for crossover use. Two could be wired in parallel for the needed 2uf values.

Hovlands are very clear and bright sounding (at least to me), but are also well-made capacitors.

Some battle-discussions have be waged over capacitor construction, too. There are some differences. The problem is that, once a cap starts sporting names like 'Auricap' Musicap' etc. the price tends to go up -- as do lots of things, even power cords, that are determined (I wonder by whom?) to be 'audiophile grade' components. The problem is that those cool titles come at a premium in terms of cost.

That's why the black Solens are thought by me and countless other DIYers to be a good compromise between performance and cost. The oil runs are not too much more expensive, and that choice might have to do with how original-like you want your networks to be.

Erik

BTW: What I said about that reviewer preferring lower order simple networks was simply his opinion and preference. My point is that there are people in both camps regarding network and network order types.

[chops]

Al, you take my comments incorrectly. I do not begrude you a profit for your work, I'm not against selling non-Klipsch engineered materials here on the Forum.

But I cannot afford to double the cost of many of my Klipsch Heritage speakers to upgrade them all to your standards. That you and other designers pan the original designs, refurbished or not, makes me wonder if you like Klipsch products at all.

I just can't come to terms with the outlay without having some better knowledge of the results. I guess it's part of the pain of having a system that I'm very happy with and trying to rationalize the expenditure of hundreds of dollars for an incremental upgrade. No I don't know what I'm missing and probably never will at this rate.

And now I'm told by you that my very first plunge into this arena, my purchase of new A/AA's for my LS was basically a waste of money on an antiquated, faulty (?) design? No wonder I don't want to possibly repeat the error.

Tom's idea of $22 per box is looking better and better. I think I'll leave the original designs alone unless someone wants to send me a single CW xover of whatever design on a 'loaner' basis so I can A/B it.

Just for kicks, how much would a pair of ALK's for CW's cost in kit form?

Michael

Michael,

I know exactly where you're coming from. If you remember, when I fist started back here on the forum back in March, I started a thread called "Klipsch Modding - Has it gone too far?"

Well since then, I have done a lot, and I do mean A LOT of reading, researching, going back to old threads from years ago, and learning a bunch of great stuff along the way. I have done upgrades, I have done tweaks, and I have done modifications, all of which I might add can be completely and totally reversed if need be.

Through the last several months, I have gone from bone stock Klipsch Cornwalls to now something I wouldn't even consider Klipsch. For all practical purposes, they are no longer Klipsch speakers. The only thing that has remained the same is the cabinets and K33-E drivers. The K-55V squawker, K-600 horn, K77 tweeter and stock Type B networks are out of the equation.

The Type B network has be shifted around so much, that it's no longer considered a Type B, or Type CS II. I don't know what you would call it, but it is now running in 2-way mode. Actually, I take that back. It's not even a 2-way, because the ONLY thing being crossed over on it is the Altec 902-8B driver at 800Hz. I now have the K33-E doubled up on the main input taps running fullrange, which the 2.5mH inductor just sitting there not hooked up to anything.

And that's the other thing, I ditched the K55/K-600 and K77/CT125 in favor of the Altec 902-8B driver and Altec 511B horn.

So why did I do this to these wonderful Cornwalls? Because to me, my current setup sounds a heck of a lot better than the stock Cornwalls ever could. Actually my brother jt1stcav also agrees, as does my other brother! And trust me, they don't care if they hurt my feelings or not. If they didn't think it sounded good, they'd tell me in a heartbeat!

But anyway, to get to my point. I was thinking the same way you are. (obviously, just read that thread of mine that I mentioned) But after going through pages and pages of excellent information on the forum, plus conversing with a lot of very knowledgable members and picking their brains like you wouldn't believe, AND listening to what my ears have been telling me, I am where I'm at now with my speakers.

I have totally contradicted myself from that thread I started several months back and am right in the middle of doing exactly what other are doing and that I was complaining about!

It all boils down to personal prefference and how far you're willing to go to get what you want. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and someone shouldn't be ridiculed because of what they believe in as far as loudspeaker choices are concerned.

If I ONLY did enough research to learn about replacing the old caps in my Type B networks and that's it, then I'd be perfectly happy with the stock Cornwalls and refreshed networks. but after hearing what that did for the sound, I grew hungry for more and craved even better results, hence my now 2-way Cornwall/Altec design. And the real kicker to this little story is, I'm not even done yet!!

And as for all of the great guys on here who offer their great services, FREE information and guidance (Bob, Al K, Dean, jc, NOS, etc, etc, etc - you all know who you are), I have nothing but total respect for these guys and am very greatful and appreciative for what they have done for me.

Anyway, I just thought I'd put that out on the table. To each his own. []

Charles

[Deang]

Fifty pages of text can't do what an hour in the listening room does.

O.K. Michael -- Would you be interested in a get together of sorts? Just imagine a full day or weekend of heaping whatever abuses on me you see fit. Maybe Trey and Who would like to be in on it. Might be an interesting time together -- I'd like to twist Who up into a pretzel, and Trey probably wants to kick my *** for some of the stuff I said in the other thread. I'll build up a couple of things in advance for the LaScalas, and bring enough parts to teach you how to build a Cornwall network. I can bring enough to build those up a couple of different ways. We'll just the load the stuff up and listen. I even have some of Bob's nice sounding tweeters, something that sounds very good with the ALKJr. When we're done -- I'll put the little ALKs up for a go around for anyone who wants to hear them.

[Erik Mandaville]

Is there a schematic available for the "ALK Jr." network?

[Deang]

The schematic shows two 20's in parallel at the primary -- but I use a Dayton Audio 40uF. Kimbers or Auricaps for the tweeter section are recommended. Litz inductors for the squawker bandpass and tweeter sections are mandatory per Al. I don't build with the zeners.

[colterphoto1]

Fifty pages of text can't do what an hour in the listening room does.

O.K. Michael -- Would you be interested in a get together of sorts? Just imagine a full day or weekend of heaping whatever abuses on me you see fit. Maybe Trey and Who would like to be in on it. Might be an interesting time together -- I'd like to twist Who up into a pretzel, and Trey probably wants to kick my *** for some of the stuff I said in the other thread. I'll build up a couple of things in advance for the LaScalas, and bring enough parts to teach you how to build a Cornwall network. I can bring enough to build those up a couple of different ways. We'll just the load the stuff up and listen. I even have some of Bob's nice sounding tweeters, something that sounds very good with the ALKJr. When we're done -- I'll put the little ALKs up for a go around for anyone who wants to hear them.

That is an offer I cannot refuse. Would you be willing to come to Indy? I could assemble Who, Indy, possibly Trey, Speedball if he's interested, others from the area...

I have stock Khorns, Cornwalls, and Heresies here. Also a pair of LS with BEC's AA/A's and the LSI's with the dreaded AL's for comparison. I could have everything in a couple of rooms where we could swap out a single of each pair and directly A/B compare with a variety of musical sources.

Please don't be upset though, if even what you propose sounds better but I cannot afford the wholesale swap of crossovers. Perhaps a kit form or by some other means I could manage to change out the lot of them. I have a pretty good inventory taken of all the network types when Who and I did the Mountain O Klipsch photo. We took the back off one of each matched pair and photographed and noted all components.

Michael

[Deang]

I assumed I'd be making the drive over to your place -- that's where all the speakers are!

Did you really think I'd drive 2 1/2 hours just for a network sale? Good Lord, that's awful. Hey, I'm not that desperate. Just because I defend or support a design I build doesn't mean I'm pimping my work. If I quit building for people here tomorrow my posts would read the same. I see myself as being well established here, and also run an ad on Audiogon. I'm never as busy as I think I'd like to be, but when things pick up I start whining about being holed up in the workroom all of the time. I'm busy enough. I don't even think this is about proving a point -- I'm simply too tired to care anymore. I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with alleviating your suffering. Well, someone did mention to me that I really need to get out more ...