Refreshing AAs

[3dzapper]

Can I stick my nose in here to speak up for Al and Dean? OK you too Bob!-) Not to mention the Johns

Starting with the Johns and Al then Bob and finally Dean, who through his own hard studying became a self-taught ego, each and every one has been freely generous in helping and encouraging others to build their own networks. Free!!! At this time I want to thank each for their help on the forum generally and to me especially over the years.

For those who through inability or lack of time couldn't build their own, most offered their labors for a small fee.

Yes there has been contention among which is best as to sound and value. One common thread remains, replacing the used up capacitors in the original networks is the starting point.

Micheal, with all those Corns, have Dean stop at Parts Express before he comes over for the cap fry. ALK Corns would be a prohibitive and, I think, unrecoverable expense.

For the Khorns IMHO, the best bang for the buck is a set of parts kits from Al K and a competent build that you can do.

Oh yeah, CP1, I want to thank you too for helping to keep the forum interesting and entertaining.[]

Rick

PS: I have built just about every variation of xover mentioned here-in except the ALK Corn and Extreme Slopes.

[Erik Mandaville]

This schematic shown is a very straightforward design. I didn't draw up a diagram for the networks I made below, and scrounged my parts bins and old networks to get the values for 'L' and 'C' as close as possible based on desired crossover frequencies and driver impedance, but it's truly very nearly identical.

I installed L before C in the bandpass, and also used a variable L-pad on these to attenuate the output of the squawker. These were made about 4 years ago.

Thanks for the schematic.

Erik

[colterphoto1]

Thanks Dean,

Actually it might even be fun. Your points are correct, please don't look at us a potential customers or even doubting Thomases. Sure we might be a challenge, but I think that myself, Who, Indy, and Trey (amoungst others) represent a fairly good set of ears with a myriad of listening experience of fairly high grade sound. Certainly most of us have a great deal of experience with unaltered Heritage Products.

I know that Dr Who and I had great fun building the Colter Comparator and lining up one of each Klipsch speaker I own just to see how they'd stack up against one another. We can surely do the same for A/B ing various Heritage tests.

I'm free of weddings for a few weekends, so we are pretty much available whenever you are free. Give a bit of notice or PM/Mail me (here we go again LOL) and I can give you the inventory list of what I have here.

Michael

[Deang]

"...and finally Dean, who through his own hard studying became a self-taught ego..."

Thanks Rick, I just spit coffee all over my screen and keyboard. Too funny, and oh sooo true! Hey, I take great pride in my humility.

It's going to be hard for me to get away in the next few weeks. I've got a few guys waiting on some stuff, and if I peel away they'll send out a posse and string me up. Then I need time for my builds before I come over. I've been wanting to build myself another set of ALKs, and I'd like to at least get those done so I can bring them over. Ideally, I'd like to bring a set of ALKJr's too. A couple of different things can be done for Cornwalls after I get there. You have a set of Bob's AA's, but I think you should also hear Bob's modified Type A with the 4500Hz crossover point and his tweeters -- but Bob would have to donate the networks for the get together -- I don't have the parts and won't have time to build them. It will be impossible to sample all of the ice cream in a single day -- we will need to talk about that. I wish I had the time and money to put together a pair of Cornwall ALKs -- an absolutely killer network for live level listening.

Oh yeah, and you're gonna learn which end of the soldering iron to use.

[BEC]

"...and finally Dean, who through his own hard studying became a self-taught ego..."

Thanks Rick, I just spit coffee all over my screen and keyboard. Too funny, and oh sooo true! Hey, I take great pride in my humility.

It's going to be hard for me to get away in the next few weeks. I've got a few guys waiting on some stuff, and if I peel away they'll send out a posse and string me up. Then I need time for my builds before I come over. I've been wanting to build myself another set of ALKs, and I'd like to at least get those done so I can bring them over. Ideally, I'd like to bring a set of ALKJr's too. A couple of different things can be done for Cornwalls after I get there. You have a set of Bob's AA's, but I think you should also hear Bob's modified Type A with the 4500Hz crossover point and his tweeters -- but Bob would have to donate the networks for the get together -- I don't have the parts and won't have time to build them. It will be impossible to sample all of the ice cream in a single day -- we will need to talk about that. I wish I had the time and money to put together a pair of Cornwall ALKs -- an absolutely killer network for live level listening.

Oh yeah, and you're gonna learn which end of the soldering iron to use.

I could probably gin up a 4500 hz type A for the gathering. That is the network we put into the Khorns at Hope.

I have built a bunch of those lately.

Bob Crites

[Erik Mandaville]

" but I think you should also hear Bob's modified Type A with the 4500Hz crossover point and his tweeters "

I want to back track on something, just so I'm clear in my own understanding of some of this. Earlier, you said you very much enjoyed the modified type 'A' for low level listening. Is there something about other networks, such as the ALK Universal or Jr. that isn't as suitable as the Klipsch 'A' for low-level listening?

It seems to me that a really good network should be equally strong with any kind of listening -- low, moderate, or loud.

Erik

[Hardhead]

As much respect as I have for Daddy Dee, I confess that I don't understand his comment to Al K and Dean, "You don't want people to use your crossovers out of ignorance do you?"

I don't see how buying Al's or Dean's crossovers without buying new capacitors so they can be thrown away later is ignorance. Decent capacitors aren't cheap, so to me it seems more efficient, cheaper, and quicker to go for the gusto directly. How does hearing the "factory sound" once again help me to appreciate how much better the ALK or DeanG crossovers sound than my old crossovers? It doesn't. If I can go from point "A" to point "C" without the expense, time, and effort of having to go through point "B," it makes good sense to me to do that. That's the reason I prefer nonstop flights over direct or connecting flights, for instance. If I can go from earth directly to heaven, why would I want to make a stop in purgatory?

I also don't regard Al's efforts in telling us the problems inherent in the Type "A" and Type "AA" designs as his wanting us to act out of ignorance or as a response to his being "threatened" or as "disrespect" to others. That information about the "A" and "AA" is VITAL to any fully-informed decision regarding updating an old design vs. upgrading to a new design. Truly, any decision made without that information and without considering its effects is itself a decision made in ignorance.

When I made the update/upgrade decision, I asked myself, "Which approach gives me the best chance for superior sound, updating the capacitors in a 30+ year-old problematic crossover designed with a slide rule or upgrading to a modern design modeled by an experienced specialist using a computer and containing superior components?" The choice I made was more expensive than a simple update, but I saved money by not going through point "B," which is the opposite of what Daddy Dee states.

Considering the problems with the Klipsch Type "A" and Type "AA" crossover designs and the fact that the ALK, etc. crossovers and their variations are designed to--and do--solve those and other problems, the arrangement of the steps along the update/upgrade continuum (not apples and oranges) seems obvious. It also seems apparent that the decision regarding how far up the improvement ladder each of us decides to go is, consequently, based primarily on financial considerations: "Knowing all the facts, how much improvement can I afford?"

I don't have a problem with that; it's reasonable and logical. For instance, I'd like to own a pair of Al K's extreme slope networks at the top of the update/upgrade ladder, but I just can't afford it, so I settle for his universal Type "A's." If we want to improve our crossovers and all we can afford is to swap out new capacitors for old, then that's fine and by all means let's do it, but let's also be aware that in most respects we're carrying some problems with us when we do that instead of leaving them behind.

[cjgeraci]

"I want to back track on something, just so I'm clear in my own understanding of some of this. Earlier, you said you very much enjoyed the modified type 'A' for low level listening. Is there something about other networks, such as the ALK Universal or Jr. that isn't as suitable as the Klipsch 'A' for low-level listening?"

Oh, c'mon, Erik. You ask this question out loud as if you do not know the answer............... baiting, are we?

You've built enough networks and participated in numerous threads in here about crossovers so you know: 1) the various part complexity of the networks you are discussing; and 2) opinions of others who have repeatedly given their listening impressions that pure first-order designs, like the "A" and John Albright's DHAxover, can sound a bit more detailed to at low volumes with Klipsch drivers/horns as opposed to designs such as the ALK Universal that employ higher order filters. Some have also used the term "cleaner." It is the nature of the respective crossover designs.

Then again, at moderate to loud volume levels, an "A" network can drive you from the room, cause one to wince (or some other unpleasant reactions) whereas a network like the ALK Universal remains quite composed, clean, and detailed all the way through.

"It seems to me that a really good network should be equally strong with any kind of listening -- low, moderate, or loud."

Then the ALK Universal is a really good network - it is a strong performer that performs well at all volume levels. Under your definition, the "A" is not a really good network. More detailed than the Universal at low volumes, but the advantage ends there - from moderate volume on up - not so much....by a substantial margin.

Carl.

[cjgeraci]

Nice post, Hardhead.

Carl.

[colterphoto1]

EDIT- Hardhead, very nice post indeed, I just reread it and it contains most of the points contained here, but I'll let them stand. Yes it comes down to economics, but I do want to know what can be achieved at what dollar point. END EDIT

While I appreciate your thoughts of going from A to C without stopping at B, here is my thinking.

If I want to clearly try to differentiate between upgraded and new design, I need at least ONE crossover of an upgraded type to compare.

Remember I have a MOUNTAIN of speakers and absolutely cannot afford a new network for each. So I must be particularly critical of the cost/benefit nature of the newer designs.

I'm taking a huge chance here because if C is clearly better than B, I'm going to be either out a whole bunch of dollars, or have to settle for second best.

I am kind of hoping the the difference between B and C is noticeable, but not terribly so considering the economics involved.

At any rate, it'll be fun to give it a try and to truly know!

Bob, thanks for your offer to help out. I already have purchased your AA/A's so hearing the slightly modified design would be interesting.

How about the 'p' trap thingie guys? Should that be considered in the mix? I wonder if my ears are good enough to tell the differences?

Michael

[Deang]

Is there something about other networks, such as the ALK Universal or Jr. that isn't as suitable as the Klipsch 'A' for low-level listening?

Yes. The more elements you add to the filter, and/or the steeper the slopes -- the louder you have to play to get the same "effect". The Type A opens up very fast, just a small twist on the knob and the room fills with music. I don't think anything beats it in the 60/70dB range of listening. I don't care for it much beyond that -- at 90dB and above, the sound puts me the fetal postion.

[cjgeraci]

"the sound puts me [in] the fetal position . . . "

There is a visual that I did not need so soon after a late dinner. [][]

Carl.

[Daddy Dee]

As much respect as I have for Daddy Dee, I confess that I don't understand his comment to Al K and Dean, "You don't want people to use your crossovers out of ignorance do you?"

I don't see how buying Al's or Dean's crossovers without buying new capacitors so they can be thrown away later is ignorance. Decent capacitors aren't cheap, so to me it seems more efficient, cheaper, and quicker to go for the gusto directly. How does hearing the "factory sound" once again help me to appreciate how much better the ALK or DeanG crossovers sound than my old crossovers? It doesn't. If I can go from point "A" to point "C" without the expense, time, and effort of having to go through point "B," it makes good sense to me to do that. That's the reason I prefer nonstop flights over direct or connecting flights, for instance. If I can go from earth directly to heaven, why would I want to make a stop in purgatory?

Hardhead,

I would consider it a courtesy if you directed your disagreement to me, rather than addressing the forum about me.

I will however, address your comments directly.

I think it may not be a matter of misunderstanding my comments, but simply a matter of disagreement. I do not take disagreement as disrespect, though.

Hopefully this will not seem too redundant, but perhaps I could be more clear about what I am saying. Part of my interest in Klipsch sound has to do with my profound admiration for the engineering and manufacturing genius of PWK. What he produced in the Heritage line, IMO are near miracles of bang for the buck amazing sound. Of course, he built speakers to a price point, for which engineering decisions are made and this is all about compromise.

I know from my personal experience how degraded crossovers get with aged caps. They make the vintage Heritage speakers sound rough and harsh, which is a shame, IMO. I am unapologetic in my interest and pleasure in restoring the grand old speakers.

What I mean by saying that I am sure the Dean and Al would not want people to buy their crossovers out of ignorance is not a judgement about the people. It is simply a description of their lack of experience from which to form a base line opinion about what they are hearing. IMO someone who does not know what the speakers sounded like when Mr. Paul sent them out of the factory simply does not have the experience on which to base a judgement about the improvement that the upgrades by Dean and Al provide. That makes sense to me, but I do not have the expectation that it would sound reasonable to you. Your description of listening to Heritage speakers restored to factory spec as "purgatory" is a clear indication of our disagreement. I think listening to music from the same speakers is fabulous and reflecting on the man who designed them is outright impressive.

Preferences are of course subjective. It is a fair expectation to anticipate that others may or may not share the same preferences or sense of value. ie. bang for the buck. I say tomatoe you say tomato. It's fine to look at these alternatives as a continuum. I am still quite comfortable in my metaphor of apples and oranges. I think that is a fairly resaonable description of comparing a $20 cap purchase to $1200 ES crossovers. One is a modest restore to spec project, the other is the ultimate crossover. I believe the both Al and Dean are appreciative of their customers who not only like their crossovers, but who also know from where they speak about the improvement over factory spec.

If this has contributed to clarity, then good. If not, we just disagree. Not a problem to me.

[BEC]

Is there something about other networks, such as the ALK Universal or Jr. that isn't as suitable as the Klipsch 'A' for low-level listening?

Yes. The more elements you add to the filter, and/or the steeper the slopes -- the louder you have to play to get the same "effect". The Type A opens up very fast, just a small twist on the knob and the room fills with music. I don't think anything beats it in the 60/70dB range of listening. I don't care for it much beyond that -- at 90dB and above, the sound puts me the fetal postion.

Well Dean, I just don't see it that way. I think 90 dB is background music and usually listen at closer to 100 db. And at that level I like simple networks. I really have not seen (or heard) anything to make me think one network sounds better at low levels and another sounds better at high levels. Please give me some sort of scientific reason that difference should be there. Remember that here we are talking about (for high levels) perhaps an average of 5 watts for the woofer, 2 for the squawker and 1 for the tweeter. Just what do you think gets overloaded there using a simple network?

Bob

[Hardhead]

Micheal--

I do understand that with 22 speakers you may not be able to afford--or even want--a new network for each one. With that many speakers, you might consider isolating, prioritizing, and concentrating. I'm assuming that all 22 speakers aren't in the same system (!). It isn't absolutely necessary that all your speakers have the same level of upgrade--although you may eventually choose to do that--and it certainly isn't necessary that all 22 be done at the same time.

It seems that having 22 speakers has you spooked because you don't want to make a mistake 22 times--very understandable. You can choose to be much more flexible if you want to--just pretend you have only one system with a few speakers and do right by those speakers. That will teach you what to do with the rest.

I would suggest that you pick the system you like or use the most, whether it's a 2-channel system, 5.1 channel system, or home theater system, and then bring the speakers in that one system to the highest level you can. Focus on that system first, and get it the way you like it--or, rather, love it. When you've done that, look at your next favorite or useful system and decide what you want to do with that one, if anything. One of your choices may be to do the same thing you did with your first system because you love that one so much, except that now you can more easily afford to do it because you're upgrading just a few crossovers at a time.

Be flexible. You can swallow a whale if you take it a bite at a time.

[Daddy Dee]

Michael,

I think you should take Bob up on his offer to send up a 4500hz modded type A for the crossover fest.

I'd also suggest to ask him to send up a pair of CT-125 tweeters to throw in the mix. Get all the mileage you can out of this.

[colterphoto1]

Thanks Dee, but have to be careful not to change too many variables at once. If we swap in the CT125's that might necessitate a crossover change as well, then we're talking pumpkins and turnips instead of apples and oranges. Can't have the whole fruit cart tipping over in the House of Klipsch!

[BEC]

Michael,

In this case, if you try the 4500 hz type A, you would at the same time need to try the CT125 tweeter. Those are a set. You can use the tweeter with any other crossover, but the 4500 hz type A should not be used with a K-77.

Bob

[colterphoto1]

would that CT125/ 4500 setup work in a CW Bob? If so I've got plenty of cabinets here.

That is my main inventory and what I'll be using for the HT, so CW's are my main concern. After that LS (I have one pair of BR's currently with AA/A BEC, and LSI with AL's) And the Khorns with their AA's.

M

[Hardhead]

Daddy Dee--

If you sensed anything discourteous in my post, it was unintended. It took some sincere thinking to figure it out, but I assume you are referring to my use of the word "his" instead of "your" in the first line of my post. My word choice was inartful and, again, unintentional. In my defense, however, I don't really see that I addressed the forum "about you," as my discussion was limited to your arguments.

I share your "profound admiration for the engineering and manufacturing genius" of Paul Klipsch. With the materials and design processes available to him at the time, he did achieve near miracles. Nevertheless, my sincere admiration for him does not prevent me from replacing a better crossover of modern design and superior materials for a crossover of outdated design any more than your admiration for him prevents you from replacing the factory stock tweeters he chose for your Klipschorns with different tweeters that you yourself chose. Replacing old tweeters with modern tweeters is OK with you, but replacing old crossover designs with better, modern crossover designs is not? I don't see the difference. Getting better sound seems more important to both of us than restoring those grand old speakers to factory stock form. I'm simply willing to take it a step further.