stormin Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Risingjay, By the way i am really glad to hear you got it worked out. As you tweak along i am sure things will get better and better. Nice equipment you got there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 don't think for a minute that ten watts can't possibly compete with several hundred for slam r. the key to Slam is Damping Factor.......... you don't have any........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 Risingjay, Thanks for looking, Yes even more can be gotten from the amps and speakers, even though I have few watts doesn't me I have to give up much. As far as damping factor there is a yes and no to that issue supply layout has perhaps even more to do with that issue! SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 25, 2006 Share Posted June 25, 2006 . As far as damping factor there is a yes and no to that issue supply layout has perhaps even more to do with that issue! SET12 i would say it's all output impedance, which you have to figger a xfmr in that equation... supply layout ..?? please explain.... and, yes, i am not against SET, i run PP tubes for mids Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homemadeheresy Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I sit about 16 from the front of my BBB(Belle Bass Bins), as the tops are not complete yet, and when I get up to a steady 1W I am feeling it pretty nicely. But suddenly develop a headache when the better half is home. Must have something to do with the iron skillet she calls a remote control. Seems every time she picks it up, I turn the volume down[]. I am not a audio guru by anymeans. But I have gathered what I consider some decent stuff, that makes listening to music quite enjoyable. The amp I use is a Kenwood KM-106, I've got three of them hooked in my theater area, which she calls "THE HOLE". Have the Belles in the front, Heresys in the rear and am have a makeshift center right now. Am going to Charleston sometime this week to pick up the KG-5.5s I won on ebay the other night. Anyhow the Belles seem to push out decent bass with whichever amp I use, but the Kenwood seems to have the Largest Kahunas of the stuff I got to push these speakers. Might be worth checking into, can't say for sure when they were made, but of the three I've got off of ebay all three work as if they were new. They are relatively inexpensive to boot. I've paid anywhere from $40 to $90 which is including shipping on them. Its worth a try to pick up one and give it a try, if it doesn't work out throw it back out on ebay. Heck even drop me a line I might be interested [] I think my next adventure will involve the warmth and glow of TUBES[<)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingjay Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 All of you are great! You have to understand that I am still new to this. Goofing around for 2 1/2 yrs. now. But now I have to figure out what to do. Here are my options as I see it. 1.) Do the mod on the amp for it to perform as I like. or 2.) Sell the Xtreme and find something along the lines of the Acurus. I plan on using the amp later to drive a sub having a Outlaw audio Bass Management System (which is still in the box) split my frequencies. My concern is if I stick with the Xtreme, my sub will not get the punch as well, that is if I don't do the mod on the amp. The sub will sound sluggish and not as tight. Will doing the mod and a new pre amp screw things up since I just doubled the Input Sensitivivty? Someone said on this tread nice Equipment. Well, I could have the best equipment in the world and have a crappy system. Everything has to work together. Which I quess is why we are all here in the first place.......to find audio nivana. Like I said, you guys are great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 don't think for a minute that ten watts can't possibly compete with several hundred for slam r. the key to Slam is Damping Factor.......... you don't have any........... Rising JAY; Can you describe the difference in more detail when switching to the preamp that had more supply juice? Duke, I have a 45 day return period on the QSC. The sound that I am getting from my B&W N801's right now is just plain light on the bass. These speakers are supposed to overpower a room with bass, even at low volume. I listened to a pair of B&W 805 bookshelf speakers that has more bass. I though that there was a sub in the room. Will the change in the input impedence make that much of a difference? I tried my peach and it did not get better. I tried my QSC 1202 and it didn't really change (maybe a little - I don't know). I tried the 1202 because it takes much less power to drive. The reason that I am waivering is because I read on teh B&W forum that someone was using a Rotel 1095 (380 wpc) and they did not get good bass. These speakers need an amp that can drive a 2 ohm load all day long with ease. I really don't want to buy a super expensive amp to drive these things. Any thoughts? Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingjay Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 don't think for a minute that ten watts can't possibly compete with several hundred for slam r. the key to Slam is Damping Factor.......... you don't have any........... Rising JAY; Can you describe the difference in more detail when switching to the preamp that had more supply juice? Chris Sure. The Acurus had the pound in the chest I was looking for. Now even when I had the Sunfire and the Acurus hooked up in my room it wasn't as great as my brother-in-laws, but it was there and you felt it like it should bee felt. Something that was definetly lacking in the Xtreme. The difference was immediate. I attribute some of the punch missing from this set up compared to my bro in laws to the room. I have an opening right behind me on the back wall that will have a door there soon, he does not. I also only have one corner that a Chorus II can sit in, just like my brother-in-law. When I have the QSC hooked up to the Xtreme, it seems like the upper frequency range is less up front. Like the singer got farther away or muted. Also the airyness went away. The Sunfire brought some of that back but very little. When I mated the QSC with the Acurus, the tight punchy bass was there like the Sunfire / Acurus set up. There was also more airyness unlike the QSC / Xtreme set up which didn't have any and the Singer was there in front again. I wasn't looking for deep bass or bass that extends lower than what the speakers are designed for. The bass I was looking for was quick, tight and you can feel it literally in your chest. But keep in mind I do not want to sacrafice my upper range. I love how my Dynaco's sound. And I have a lot of upgradeing options with them. I thinking of letting the Dynaco Tubes take care of anything from 40hz to 80hz on up and letting the QSC do the rest on the low end. I hope this help. I'm trying to describe the best I can. Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 120-150 Hz .... gives you that punch in the gut......... sounds like a bit of room issues, along with not enuff preamp sensitivity/ mismatch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Chris ... what is the rule for pre/ power amp matching ..??? one must have 10x the impedance of the other ...??? sounds like this is where you have gone wrong ... the input mod talked about, will not fix a pre/power impedance mismatch if you want to drive 2 ohms, the "K" model does that with ease, I'd have to belive the QSC would too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SET12 Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 . As far as damping factor there is a yes and no to that issue supply layout has perhaps even more to do with that issue! SET12 i would say it's all output impedance, which you have to figger a xfmr in that equation... supply layout ..?? please explain.... and, yes, i am not against SET, i run PP tubes for mids There are many things going on in an amplifier, Some are relevent when the x-thing is going on and some are not relevent when the y-thing is going on yes some tube amps can be dark, mushy, slow, lifeless this goes for solid-state as well. everything is relevent to an amp yet some things like a large quick supply can do wonders for overall performance. An example the Brass EL84 amp that I have posted pictures of was once a butt ugly chassis according to my friends wife. But the performance really excited my friend so we did a form of restoration to a new chassis and circuit layout with all new parts but the Iron, turned out to be not only a performer but a real looker as well. He called me one day and said he thought the power transformer went out, He ordered a new one and when it arrived I went to help him install it and found their was nothing wrong with the old one he was ready to send it back when I said lets give it a listen as it was very massive it was a one-electron power trany it did sound fuller, and then on a hunch I said lets pull a 100 ohm resistor out of the supply path to the 84 output tubes letting them run right off the cap that the rectifier fed, since this was push pull most of the noise would cancel anyway. The result listening was very amazing to the both of us! The resistor was never returned. Everything was improved as a result. If you have a choke in the supply path chances are it likely has a high DC resistance like 60 to 200 ohms and maybe 5-10 henrys you can try bypassing it all together or you may have a large 100 or so ohm resistor that you can bypass depending on the supply capacitance you may or may not have some noise when this is done but if you like the punch which will be better detected full range you can add more capacitance to your supply. You should only try this if you have some high voltage experiance or have a friend with experiance help you the voltage is lethal. If you don't want to do that another alternative is to use a large choke one that is lets say around 1 henry and 5 ohms DC resistance Hamond makes an enclosed one its weight is around 17lbs or one that fits with low values. caps maybe an easier alternative if you have to I am not alone in this kind of thinking Herb Riechart I'm not sure on the spelling sets his chokes up like this he is a major 300B amp man. He designed an amp called Flesh and Blood and based on my little experiment he is totally correct in the performance dynamics to be had from fast time constant supplies. I go even further than he does but I may have possible patent applications so I can't discuss what I do. but what I have said here will make an amplifier more dynamic and envolveing. SET12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Jay- It sounds to me like the QSC input IMPEDANCE might be lower than what is ideal for the Xtreme. If you can find the spec for INPUT IMPEDANCE, let me know. If it is less than 15k ohms, you can be losing some bass impact with the Xtreme. The Acurus being a SS preamp will have an output Z of about 600O and thus, the bass reappears. Often the input Z on such an amp can be raised by simply replacing a couple resistors. Whereas the Peach can be made to drive any load, the BBX does NOT have that low impedance output option, and so it prefers to see about 50kO and higher such as you would have with a tube power amp. Previously in this thread there was mention of input SENSITIVITY - this is NOT the issue. md P.S. When connected to a suitable and compatible amp both the BlueBerry and the Xtreme have EXCEPTIONAL bass response, and will stand comparison to any SS preamp. Mark, OK, I am using a receiver right now and wll be using a Peach when I get teh speakers in another room. Here are the QSC specs: PLX 3002: Input Impedance 6k ohms unbalanced and 12 k Ohm balanced (obviously I am using unbalanced) Input sensitivity: 1.7v (+6.8 dBu) for full power at 8 ohms 1.5 v (+5.7 dBu) for full power at 4 ohms the PLX 1202 is 1.0v and 0.9v Will the Peach drive these amps in normal (not Low Z) mode? What do I have to do to mod these amps to be driven by most any consumer premps? Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingjay Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 I would check with QSC to find out if the input can be raised to 47kO or so. Most of these amps have a simple OpAmp input stage and they are inherently VERY High Z devices, so it should be possible to change a couple resistors without affecting any of the other operation of the amp. md I just got off the phone with QSC and they said that the input impedance cannot be raised. So I am screwed. The Sunfire is running at 24k ohms which verifies why It sounded a little better when mated to the Xtreme not much. This sucks. Well this is a new and further journey into the audio world for me. Learned something new. Now what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingjay Posted June 26, 2006 Author Share Posted June 26, 2006 Forgot to add that the Acurus output sensitivity is rated at 8V rms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I found a preamp that has an output at 50 ohms. According to Dukes 10 to 1 rule, I would need a power amp that is 500 ohms. Can I use this preamp with a 50 ohm output and my QSC with 6000 ohms in (I.e. a 100 to 1 ratio)? Thanks, Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macho Nacho Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 No Thanks, I am still recovering from a kick to the groin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 I found a preamp that has an output at 50 ohms. According to Dukes 10 to 1 rule, I would need a power amp that is 500 ohms. Can I use this preamp with a 50 ohm output and my QSC with 6000 ohms in (I.e. a 100 to 1 ratio)? Thanks, Chris Edit - Mark - will the Low Z drive these amps properly? The reason that I ask is because I tried it and it did not seem to get better. BUT, remember that the QSC needs a relatively high voltage to drive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 "Edit - Mark - will the Low Z drive these amps properly? The reason that I ask is because I tried it and it did not seem to get better. BUT, remember that the QSC needs a relatively high voltage to drive it." Chris: In my experience, yes - the superloz mode of the Peach does the trick. I am not sure why you have not heard a substantial difference, but the superloz mode more than rectifies any input impedance problems the QSC PLXs might have - at least it does with me running QSC PLX 1202s - and the higher numbered models would not be that much different. In fact, Sheltie Dave and I ran the superloz Peach mode - to a PLX 1202 - then to vertical Cornwalls - all day yesterday at a high school class reunion. There was plenty of "punch" to be had by all . . . . Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6foot8 Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Hey Duke, Ya think an ART Cleanbox would solve his problem. I use one between an Accuphase preamp and my BGWs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frzninvt Posted June 26, 2006 Share Posted June 26, 2006 Want an amp with some serious "cojenes" that will drive ANY load on the planet? Even down to 0.1ohm. No fans, all convection cooling more than 20cu ft. of it in fact. It will put the QSC amps to shame in any category, and it was designed and built for the home audio environment. It retailed about $5000, I ran two of them up until Oct-Nov last year at which time I sold them to Wayne (TravisC) here on the forum since he was local to me. These things are BIG, ask Coytee! The amp is the super rare DBX BX1 Reference Configurable Amplifier. It can be run in 2, 3, or 4 channel mode. The two channel rating is 400W X 2 and when you see it and the massive internals you will know that it means business. I believe it is in Larry Whaples possession at this time but Wayne wants to sell it. You wont need to worry about the punch that your preamp can provide when you are running the BX-1 this I can assure you. The super informative user manual has been posted on here before so do a search, and Coytee recently posted a review from Gordon Holt. I think he is asking $700 or less for it, not sure, email him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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