Deang Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 The inductance values are easy to come by, it's the DCR component that's the problem. A couple of them are available in iron cores, but not steel laminates. I have some free time later today, I'll go on the hunt and see what I can come up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 SURELY there are others here that can do this if I can do this? Not for a couple of years I think. I just got done paying off the near $6K I spent on the Klipschorns -- which BTW look much nicer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpm Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 How do these Jubilee's sound compared to Khorns for instance? What are they really? Theater speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 [ip]CONGRATS[ip] PWK strove for years to build a two way horn system and after hearing them last year and this year in Hope it was a huge success. PWK and Roy did a spectacular job from what we heard there was no need for a third horn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 How do these Jubilee's sound compared to Khorns for instance? What are they really? Theater speakers? If you do a search for Jubilee you will find many articles. Roy Delgado and PWK built the Jubilee together in Hope. It was PWKs last new folded bass horn design which only made it to the cinema line. If you look at the picture of PWK with the finished product it looks like he means for it to be produced as a consumer product but thats just what I am reading into it with no facts to back up my claim. It sure is beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colterphoto1 Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 HUH, only 45 hz?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 "SURELY there are others here that can do this if I can do this? " The foot print is the current issue for me. Just do not have space for them. Unlike other parts of the US, the greater NYC area home sizes to cost ratio is out of wack. Half a million bucks will only get you about 1200 sq feet. I added 400 sq feet just to get it big enough for a family of 5. Have foundation layed for and framing for an addtional 500 Sq ft, which will include a space for a home theater. Doing it all myself, so time lines are still pretty far out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 HUH, only 45 hz?? La Scala 53hz Belle 54hz You heard the Jubilee in Hope and the bottom end sounded great . I don't know what it is about folded bass horns that I like so much but I prefer them over direct anyday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 "...no need for a third horn." I almost pulled the trigger on this project last year, but one of the things that held me back was the realization that all of the 2" exit drivers have falling response after 8kHz or so, and by 12kHz it's pretty much over. Also, what you get towards the end of their response looks plain awful. The Radian 850PB looked hopeful, but the available curves are smoothed in a major way, and the fact that the driver goes for roughly $450 didn't exactly make me eager to bite. So, it just seems to me you need some serious EQ in there to lift the falling response. I suppose 5dB down or so at 15kHz could sound pretty good, but I had strong feeling that if I did it -- I was going to end up with a three way. I had actually settled on pushing the bass bin a bit higher, trying a smaller driver, and coupling it to a Geddes/Hughes Quadratic-throat waveguide. At any rate, that big horn is very cool, but some people doing this down the road are probably going to find that monster a bit much in moderately sized living rooms. What's cool about the Jubilee bottom is all the options that open for people who like to experiment. Something tells me if the thing sounds that good as a two-way, it might sound even better still with a nice tweeter to cover the last octave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Dean, you're not taking into account the type of horn the drivers were mounted on when those measurements were taken (constant directivity / flat power response). It's rather old school to collapse the HF verticals to achieve a very flat on-axis response. I believe most every horn made by Klipsch is doing this. The B&C DE1050 is probably one of the better drivers out there: http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=4&id_descrizione=46&prodotto=174 http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-DE1050-1.htm But at $600, one would certainly hope so! A slightly cheaper alternative would be something like the DE75PTN: http://www.bcspeakers.com/download/prodotti/PDF/more/193.pdf http://www.usspeaker.com/B&C-DE75PTN-1.htm Which at $250 is very reasonable. The original K1162 driver used in the cinema lineup has the same failing HF response, but that is a required THX spec because corrective EQ for the screen is already going to be used and the constant directivity is a higher priority (so a little more EQ isn't a big deal). For the home version, Roy is implementing the K69 driver which doesn't have the same roll-off when mounted in that horn, and it also happens to be cheaper which is a double plus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Dean, you're not taking into account the type of horn the drivers were mounted on when those measurements were taken (constant directivity / flat power response). Yes, I am. Sometimes the measurements are taken on a CD horn, sometimes they don't even tell you how the measurement was taken at all (like that B&C driver for example) -- sometimes you get lucky and get to see the plane wave tube response -- which pretty much shows the best the driver can do. In those cases, you can clearly see the limitations of the 2" drivers on the top. BTW, that B&C driver has a recommended crosssover of 8kHz, and looking at the graph you can see why. Pretend a best case scenerio and you might get 12kHz. "...implementing the K69 driver which doesn't have the same roll-off when mounted in that horn." Is it a 2" driver. Measurements please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 7, 2006 Author Share Posted July 7, 2006 For those who made comments about crossovers, I for one (and I think Mike will be doing same or similar) will be starting with an active. I'll get what Roy suggested and also uses, the ElectroVoice Dx 38 http://www.electrovoice.com/documents/dx38-eds.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Here is one that also covers the software. http://www.proaudiosuperstore.com/pdf/EV-DX38.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted July 7, 2006 Author Share Posted July 7, 2006 seems my first listing is in German?? what's up with that? lol here's another attempt from EV's site. http://electro-voice.com/products/50.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Dean, you're not taking into account the type of horn the drivers were mounted on when those measurements were taken (constant directivity / flat power response). Yes, I am. Sometimes the measurements are taken on a CD horn, sometimes they don't even tell you how the measurement was taken at all (like that B&C driver for example) -- sometimes you get lucky and get to see the plane wave tube response -- which pretty much shows the best the driver can do. In those cases, you can clearly see the limitations of the 2" drivers on the top. BTW, that B&C driver has a recommended crosssover of 8kHz, and looking at the graph you can see why. Pretend a best case scenerio and you might get 12kHz. "...implementing the K69 driver which doesn't have the same roll-off when mounted in that horn." Is it a 2" driver. Measurements please. You aren't reading very carefully at all... That is a 0.8kHz recommended crossover, aka 800Hz. And then right below the mounting and shipping info the type of horn used in the measurement is listed. The DE1050 was measured on the ME60 horn: http://www.bcspeakers.com/download/prodotti/PDF/ME60.pdf 60x40 CD And then the DE75PTN was measured on the ME75 horn: http://www.bcspeakers.com/download/prodotti/PDF/more/154.pdf 90x40 CD If you look at the frequency response, you only need 6dB of gain at the top end to achieve a flat response - which corresponds to cutting the dispersion in half (so it'll be around 20 degrees at the top - whether or not this is too narrow is a different concern). But I believe by moving to a tractrix expansion that the polars can be even wider...something like 30 degrees really isn't all that bad. The plane wave tube isn't exactly the "best" a driver can do...it's more of the raw power response for the driver, which will help dictate what kind of power response the horn needs to have in order to achieve a target frequency response with certain polars. The recommended crossover is also assuming being mated to the specified horn, which means slightly lower can be achieved with higher slopes and a horn that loads the driver even lower. I don't remember the actual diaphragm size of the K69, but I'm pretty sure the horn has a 2" throat. I'm also pretty sure the stock horn has narrowed verticals already and that the K1162 driver is what has the failing response - at least I think Roy was referencing this horn when talking about the theory. As far as measurements, I don't think anyone has any that can be shared, but if I remember correctly it's only a few dB down at 18kHz. I do know the extension is solid though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 You aren't reading very carefully at all...That is a 0.8kHz recommended crossover, aka 800Hz. LOL, ah c'mon Man, I only missed by 7200 cycles. And then right below the mounting and shipping info the type of horn used in the measurement is listed. Hmm, I don't see it there, but the .pdf has it -- thanks. If you look at the frequency response, you only need 6dB of gain at the top end to achieve a flat response - which corresponds to cutting the dispersion in half (so it'll be around 20 degrees at the top - whether or not this is too narrow is a different concern). But I believe by moving to a tractrix expansion that the polars can be even wider...something like 30 degrees really isn't all that bad. I appreciate that info Mike, it's interesting. As far as the FR on that CD horn goes, I see almost 15dB down at 20kHz. Are you saying only 6dB of gain needed with a Tractrix? Maybe, but we don't really know do we? My point anyway was that some EQ would be needed, and someone with a purist type setup isn't necessarily going to be thrilled about an EQ being mandatory as part of their setup to run these speakers as a two-way. The plane wave tube isn't exactly the "best" a driver can do...it's more of the raw power response for the driver, which will help dictate what kind of power response the horn needs to have in order to achieve a target frequency response with certain polars. It think it shows the best the driver can do at the high end of its response, at least, that's what I've been led to believe. I do understand that this doesn't apply to the first cut off. The recommended crossover is also assuming being mated to the specified horn, which means slightly lower can be achieved with higher slopes and a horn that loads the driver even lower. I understand that, my concern was with the HF response. Look, I'm not trying to rain on the parade here, but did want to point out that there are some unknowns, and before I possibly shell out a chunk of change near the order of my Klipschorns -- I think it's O.K. to want to know a few things. As far as measurements, I don't think anyone has any that can be shared..., but if I remember correctly it's only a few dB down at 18kHz. I do know the extension is solid though. Back to where we started. Figure near flat to 15kHz, and like I said -- some might like a tweeter for the last octave if they don't want to EQ -- that's all I was saying. A good tweeter brings some nice things with it that a big driver running out gas doesn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrot Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Isn't the main thing going for the Jubilee that it is a two-way? If it's made into a three-way, why not stick with the tried and true Khorn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted July 7, 2006 Share Posted July 7, 2006 Isn't the main thing going for the Jubilee that it is a two-way? If it's made into a three-way, why not stick with the tried and true Khorn? It would be great for someone who didn't have good corners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Cuz some of us can't stand the nasties of the khorn bass bin [] As far as EQ... it isn't needed; just build the horn correctly. I understand the fear of the unknown factor, so perhaps we can get Klipsch to provide us with a frequency response and rough polar plots? I know Mike has an ETF, so perhaps he wouldn't mind sharing some measurements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Cuz some of us can't stand the nasties of the khorn bass bin [] now, now Who .... you , and Audio Bliss with a KH ........ ...........................................................................are only 7 ms. apart......[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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