George Roland Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 I'm looking for recommendations for a tube pre for my K-horns. Right now, I have an ARC SP-8 and a Curcio modded Dynaco PAS-2. The ARC extracts a LOT more detail but it is unacceptably noisy and hard sounding. The PAS 2 is quiet (after considerable tube rolling) but doesn't have the detail. The ARC was fully reconditioned by ARC with all new tubes. Their guy told me it had WAY too much gain (24 dB I think) for K-horns (I bought it before I got the horns.) Anyway, with that as background, I'd be interested in recommendations for a pre. I've been looking at Foreplay III and Welborne kits. I can put a kit together if the instructions are excellent. I have no knowledge of electronics but am careful and have steady hands. Fire away guys. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheltie dave Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 George, if you want to build a preamp, the Foreplay is a good option. The more efficient your speakers are, the more upgrade options you need to drive the noise floor to a minimum. A fully tricked out Foreplay plus your time, testing, and patience probably will not be competitive with one of the JuicyMusic Merlin preamps delivered to your doorstep fully operational. It all depends on whether you want a learning experience and how much time and money you have to spend. I've had a Foreplay and a Merlin in my RF-7 system, and the Merlin is still part of the system. The Foreplay loaner was glady returned to a friend. He since sold it and the buyer is still happy with it, running a set of JBL L150s with a Carver amp. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 I ran a Merlin, with K-H for a week demo ... Outstanding ..... the ARC probably produces much too gain for your system, what, 32 dB..?? not to mention, most ARC products sound, well ...Cold ...with Klipsch, espcially there are other fine choices, Quicksilver comes to mind, but Juicy Music... delivers with Klipsch.... and, how can you not like our own MDeneen ...?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.4knee Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 You should find your answer here: http://www.juicymusicaudio.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Roland Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 I was looking over Juicy Music's Web site and reading some of the reviews there. I have a LOT of LPs, so I might be more interested in the Blueberry. Any thoughts on the sonic quality of the Blueberry and its phono stage or the Merlin and someone else's phono stage at abut the same price? Thanks for the information. George Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Roland Posted November 19, 2006 Author Share Posted November 19, 2006 You're right on with these characterizations. ARC told me the SP-8 had too much gain for K-horns. I bought it before I bought the K-horns for use with less efficient speakers. It produces a lot of inner detail, but it is cold, hard and noisy with the K-horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlb945 Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 One of the joys I have found with my K-horns is mixing tube and solid state units for amp and preamp. Up until a month ago, my favorite setup had been a Conrad Johnson MV75-A1 amplifier and a Marantz 7T preamp. The CJ amp throws a good soundstage along with OK bottom end. It produces the warm glow that tube lovers seek. I'll not bore you with output and driver tube rolling but they all make a difference.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> The only problem with my slightly modified 7T preamp is, the noise and a flattened front-to-back image. The air around instruments/singers is there but the depth of the image is limited to 9 feet or less. Side-to-side image is extremely good. I thought the flat imaging was a given with K-horns. Then, a month ago, I won a bid on eBay for an Adcom GFP-555II preamp for $100. Figured I could try it and if I didn't want to keep it, I could list it again on eBay and get all or most of my money back. I wanted to try the Adcom because it is based on similar circuits to those in the vintage 7T. My surprise with the Adcom GFP-555II came in the form of the quietist preamp ever played on my system. Further, the image depth now extends from about 2 feet in front of the speaker plane to somewhere back through the wall to my neighbor's house. I now can tell how high or low the instruments are in a recording and the hall or studio acoustics are evident. For the $100 price, Adcom GFP-555II is a keeper. I can't say what the Adcom will do with your amp, speakers or room environment but I have swapped out the CJ amplifier and played it with a highly modified Dynaco ST-70 tube amp and a pair of Dynaco Mark III's tube amps with equal satisfaction. I found it does not play well with a Hafler DH-500, a Dynaco ST-80 or Sonic Impact T-amp as there is a little too much high frequency sizzle or brightness with these solid state boxes. All of the solid state amps sound fine with my highly modified Dynaco PAS-3X, although a little to "boomy" with some recordings. If you are using a tube amp, you might take the Adcom preamp for a ride and give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 I was looking over Juicy Music's Web site and reading some of the reviews there. I have a LOT of LPs, so I might be more interested in the Blueberry. Any thoughts on the sonic quality of the Blueberry and its phono stage or the Merlin and someone else's phono stage at abut the same price? Thanks for the information. George The BlueBerry Xtreme is an amazing preamp, and especially with vinyl! I didn't see where you are from but there are a number of us who now own this preamp. Maybe it's possible you can have someone bring theirs over, or you can hear it with their system. This way you can demo it and see if it's to your liking. I have been told you can't touch this preamp/phono for less than $5K and I believe it... it's that good! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryC Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 Are you from the Meadville way north of Pittsburgh PA, or the very small place in Lancaster Co.? One forum member who lives south of Baltimore has a BBX. Based on what I've heard, including a direct comparison with my own quality equipment, here's my vote for the very high sonic and design quality of the BBXtreme and think you can't go wrong with it at anywhere near the price. I can't comment on comparisons with others' phono stages, but believe that Mark Deneen's is very satisfactory. Note that Mark also sells a separate kit Tercel phono preamp that can be used with the Merlin: http://juicymusicaudio.com/webpages/kits.html. Note that the LOMC option, a pair of transformers for either the BBX or the Tercel, will add some to the price -- see http://juicymusicaudio.com/webpages/buy.html Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted November 19, 2006 Share Posted November 19, 2006 The last thing that you need with Khorns is an active preamplifier (tube or solid state). With a sensitivity of 104dB/1 watt @1 meter, all that you need for a 110dB sound level is a four watt amp. A 16 watt amp will produce an ear piercing 116dB. With a 125 watt amp, I use a Placette straight line attenuator with an additional 20dB attenuator in front of that to bring the volume to a listenable range. Having additional preamplification makes no sense at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 The last thing that you need with Khorns is an active preamplifier (tube or solid state). With a sensitivity of 104dB/1 watt @1 meter, all that you need for a 110dB sound level is a four watt amp. A 16 watt amp will produce an ear piercing 116dB. With a 125 watt amp, I use a Placette straight line attenuator with an additional 20dB attenuator in front of that to bring the volume to a listenable range. Having additional preamplification makes no sense at all. Hmmmmm..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Spinner Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 aaaahhhhhh....... Nevermind Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 OK guys, thanks for your discretion and diplomacy. Never the less, the system works quite well for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 The last thing that you need with Khorns is an active preamplifier (tube or solid state). With a sensitivity of 104dB/1 watt @1 meter, all that you need for a 110dB sound level is a four watt amp. A 16 watt amp will produce an ear piercing 116dB. With a 125 watt amp, I use a Placette straight line attenuator with an additional 20dB attenuator in front of that to bring the volume to a listenable range. Having additional preamplification makes no sense at all. I like the autoformer version of the passive pre-amp approach. I think the resistor bank on the multi-selector switch is less transparent. http://diyparadise.com/maggie.html The topic of passive -preamp's is probally one that needs a whole thread for itself so folks have a better undersanding as to it's features and benifets. The only additional consideration with gain inserted in the signal path is the ability of the line source driver such as a CD deck or Tuner of delivering the input voltage needed to drive an amp to it's max power. Typically it's 1.3 volts. A lot of CD decks, medai servers and other line level devices can genetrate 1.5 volts. However, there are some older line level devices that are limited to .9 volts. So yeah, if you have a media server, CD deck, ot other line level device that can generate 1.3 volts or more.....you certainly do not need a active pre-amp. A lot of folks are finding this out indirectly by swapping out the tubes in their pre-amps for tubes of lower MU values, which results in lowering the gain in the signal path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 The last thing that you need with Khorns is an active preamplifier (tube or solid state). With a sensitivity of 104dB/1 watt @1 meter, all that you need for a 110dB sound level is a four watt amp. A 16 watt amp will produce an ear piercing 116dB. With a 125 watt amp, I use a Placette straight line attenuator with an additional 20dB attenuator in front of that to bring the volume to a listenable range. Having additional preamplification makes no sense at all. The above information is total bull................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfogg Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 If you like the ARC just put some attenuators between it and your amps. Maybe 10dB or so. It will drop the noise by that amount and make the gain characteristics of your system match up much better and give you finer control over the volume of the system. You could build attenuators to do this for a couple of bucks or buy a pair from someone like: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?accstwek&1168785088 Shawn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 "The topic of passive -preamp's is probally one that needs a whole thread for itself so folks have a better undersanding as to it's features and benifets." We have done so lots of times. There are a number of forum members who prefer an inline attentuator/switchbox (aka passiv preamp) to an active line stage, and I've used them often in the past, too. Erik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Erik Mandaville If any of the past threads cover the autoformer types vs the lpad types vs the resistor bank types can you post a link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Erik Mandaville If any of the past threads cover the autoformer types vs the lpad types vs the resistor bank types can you post a link? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dhtman Posted November 20, 2006 Share Posted November 20, 2006 Back to the OP's question. I heard Ron Welborne's Ultrapath linestage at RMAF in a very good sounding (some said best in show) system so it clearly cuts the mustard. I know Ron's kits come with great instructions and I can vouch for his after sales support. I also heard Mark's Blueberry Extreme and that too is a very fine sounding pre with a great phono stage. Many here get great results with Juicy Music pre's in their systems - it strikes me that the Welbornes are more SET audiophile mainstream, which means that there's always good second owner demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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