The Doctor is IN

[Duke Spinner]

Ya, we listened to the Forte's in the office...what a boring speaker

finally, Who ....

what a fantastically well balanced speaker that is ...

[DrWho]

Based on my limited experience, I suspect that most speakers (perhaps not Khorns) benefit from the assistance of a subwoofer, not just La Scalas. The "20-20k" speaker seems to be an advertising fiction, at least any that cost less than a nice car. Even some $80,000 speakers sound better with a sub, or so I've read.

"What good is a PA that will only dig down to 100 Hz then fall off?" PAs are for speech, aren't they? Who's got a voice deeper than 100Hz? Don't mean to sound like I'm mocking you, but sometimes measurements can make you think that something you're really happy with is now somehow inadequate and not as good as it was before you measured it.

For me, the La Scalas plus Paradigm sub sound more like live music than any other speakers I've ever heard. That's good enough for me.

Pat on the Island

Yep, even khorns need subwoofers - but that's like signing your death warrant here on the forum...I'll go get my rope ready. [] As far as any speaker benefiting from a subwoofer - I would blaim that on a reduction in Intermodulation distortion and the ability to easily compensate for variations between recordings.

As far as PA's - extension down to 30Hz would be considered adequate, but you can often get by with only 40Hz and sometimes even 50Hz. Of course this is using PA in the sense of live sound reinforcement for bands (which is what Colter was talking about). Considering the insane output capabilities of the lascalas, I think being down 5-10dB from 50-100Hz isn't that huge of a deal since you can always EQ everything back up.

[DrWho]

I was kinda bummed that my ears were shot while at Roger's. I was looking forward to providing a good critical listening to everything. Moral of the story - don't inhale MDF dust [+o(][+o(]

However, there was one point in time where my ears cleared up and it was like wow - what clarity. Roger had his Ultra2 subs dialed in perfectly with his lascalas. Those subs continue to amaze me all the time. They are totally seamless and have no problems at all keeping up with the dynamics. Insanely musical yet will grunt out the insanely deep bass when called upon. And then when you consider how small they are....ya, Klipsch went way overboard on those drivers.

Anyways, I believe one of Roger's goals was to recreate the theater experience and I think he accomplished that. The last time I heard Roger's system I felt that it was just a touch tubby sounding and a little gritty on the high-end, and too dry (whatever that means) for my tastes. Since then he's added all that foam and upgraded from the Denon 3802 to a full blown Sunfire seperates configuration. He's now got them lush warm mids without sacrificing clarity and brightness (ya, bright is a good thing). It'd be fun to measure his room sometime - the acoustical treatment approach is a bit not what I would recommend based on the latest reading I've been doing, but you can't deny your ears and note that it sounds good. I think having a room more on the dead side of things is good for home theatre since a lot of spatiality is being reproduced by the surround channels.

I'm just rambling now, but just wanted to say that I'm a huge Cirque du Soleil fan. I would love to see them live sometime - that's gotta be incredible in person.

[garyrc]

Differing results .....

Re: the La Scala results reported on this thread. The Belle Klipsch is supposed to sound a lot like the La Scala (but since the Belle's mid horn is a bit shorter, it should sound a little different). My Belle is against a big wall, being used as a center channel. It is fairly smooth in the mid bass, and has a big peak at about 60 Hz, then drops like a rock, to nearly nothing just below that.

My Klipschorns, in my old house, tight in their corners, with rock solid special walls (studs 8" on center, double 3/4 plywood plus veneer) actually not only went to 31.5 Hz, but had response that was slightly elevated there (~ + 1.5 dB), relative to 1KHz, honest! And the response was pretty clean, (almost as clean as at 40 Hz) with no doubling apparent. Below 31.5 Hz there was rapid attenuation, the sound got a little dirtier, but was still there at 25, and (barely) at 20, Unfortunately, at my new house, with slightly floppy sheetrock walls, a springy floor, and imperfect corners, the response has problems of various kinds in the bass, especially below about 40 Hz, and bass is seriously attenuated (~ -8 dB @ 35 Hz). Same speakers! We are redoing the music room, and eventually it will have rock solid corners and floor, and tightly fitting corners, and acoustical treatment, then we'll see!

Although the above measurements were taken without it being turned on, I now use a subwoofer (Klipsch RSW-15) for some CDs and all movies. It sounds cleanest crossing over at 40 Hz (I'd cross it over a bit lower if I could), and set at least 1 dB below the level of the Klipschorns. I prefer the Klipschorns to deliver most of the mid/hi bass attack that can occur anywhere from 40 up to about 150 Hz; I like their clean, snappy sound. I predict that when we finish rebuilding and tuning the room I will need the sub less often, but I'll still use it with some music, to get good response down to 20 Hz or so.

[Duke Spinner]

I think being down 5-10dB from 50-100Hz isn't that huge of a deal since you can always EQ everything back up.

Wait ...! Who .....

I thought the Horn Mouth couldn't support anything under 70 hz ....

Sooooooo......

What good is EQ ...???

[DrWho]

Gary, how did you arrive at these measurements? (swept frequencies? constant tone? pink nose? type of mic? etc etc)

Duke, just because the horn "cuts off" at a frequency doesn't mean it's a brick wall filter and drops off instantly. I have heard it mentioned that it's basically behaving like a direct radiator below the cutoff - the K33 is a 97ish dB sensitive speaker? It's comparable to lots of PA systems out there.

[garyrc]

Dr. Who,

Would that I had, or could afford, good measurement equipment. My compromise in the future will be the Beheringer mic that you and others recommended, which is now on triple backorder, and may arrive by the time our new room is finished (but not tuned), along with an online analyzer of some kind. The old measurements were surprisingly repeatable in the bass range, so I would guess that the large differences in the way the Khorns responded in the two different houses are probably for real; accuracy in the absolute true SPL sense is probably low, but the reliability (precision) is probably high, because 50" away on the tweeter axis in our Oakland house produced nearly the same bass measurements again and again, over months and years. The only tools that were used in both houses -- and therefore can be used for comparison -- are the miserable Rat Shack meter (analog variety c 1985) and a French CD called Compact Test, from Diapason, using frequency modulated noise at third octaves (details below).* Radio Shack provided a frequency response curve in those days that showed very large deviations from flat in the hi-mid and treble range that one had to compensate for, but essentially flat bass. I did not then have the various other curves for that meter (none of which agree very well) so, below about 1.25 KHz, I treated the meter as essentially flat on axis, because that's what their graph claimed. I do remember that an image of my yellow Klipsch "Bullshit" button flashed into my mind at the moment I first saw the ruler flat bass response. But I took the bass readings at face value, because I had no other data. In the treble, all bets were off, even though I went cross-eyed reading their compensation curve with a magnifying glass, confidence was low. We finally gave up on measuring treble response, period, and will try again when the Beheringer mic arrives.

In our very symmetrical Oakland room, 50" away from each Khorn in turn, on tweeter axis (flashlight determined) the two Khorns were very nearly the same in the bass, except for a big, narrow, mysterious dip in the left one at 70 Hz. On several occasions, I tried taking the meter off of the tripod and moving it around (being careful to not have my reflecting body behind the meter) and the readings didn't change much (in the bass) over a lateral range of about a foot either way. Walking the meter in an arc with the Khorn being measured approximately equidistant from the meter did make a larger difference.

Here's my point on the comparison of rooms, using the same CD and the same meter, still treating the meter's response as flat below 1.25K Hz, at 50" on tweeter axis, in our Oregon house, the same speakers lost 9.5 dB response at 31.5 Hz, relative to 1K Hz, from approx. a +1.5dB to a - 8dB or so. I didn't apply any of the recently acquired, disagreeing, correction curves, because I didn't in Oakland, wanted to be consistent, and I'm at a loss as to how to treat the disagreements in various versions. Taking the meter off the tripod and moving it around produced variations similar to doing so in Oakland. The 70 Hz dip in the left Khorn seems to be gone -- maybe it stayed in Oakland.

Measuring the Belle in Oregon (didn't have or need it in Oakland's narrower soundstage), 50" away, on tweeter axis, which is considerably closer to the floor, naturally, than the Khorn tweeter axis, same meter, same CD, we got the big peak at 60 Hz (I'd have to look it up, but I think it was about 6 or 7 dB), fading to nothing below.

In Oakland, the 31.5 Hz not only measured @ about + 1.5 dB (center of needle swing) but sounded very strong and powerful at the measurement point, and at several points in the room, with spots in which it was attenuated, but still solid and insistent in it's clean presence.

There were a variety of other measurements taken in each house, but not in both, so we can't really compare. An audio oscillator (borrowed) sine wave sweep in Oakland produced a curve with more peaks and valleys, some dramatic, than with the CD, and I can't find the records, but I remember that the response at about 35 Hz was pretty flat, not as low as the - 5 dB that Klipsch specs. I don't remember what it did at 31.5, and may not have lingered there, but I remember it growling away, quieter and quieter, into the 20s.

In Oregon, we've also used the Stereophile Editor's Choice Sampler & Test CD, and in going back and forth between it and the Diapason Compact Test CD, we found that the major difference between the two disks is higher level high frequency response (10K Hz and above) with the Stereophile disk, that also seems to be slightly upward curving above 10K (compared to Diapason, on all speakers, more so on the Khorns and Belle than on our surround Heresy IIs).

When we first moved to Oregon, we borrowed an Audio Control real time analyzer from a friendly (Klipsch) dealer. We used pink noise, as advised for this analyzer, from both Diapason and Stereophile sources. It gave us similar bass readings (to the Oregon set) when their microphone (supposedly calibrated and matched to the analyzer) was put in exactly our standard rat shack position. That's the good news. The bad news is that it gave us outrageously elevated readings in the treble, from about 5 or 6.3K up to the top, that simply were not plausible. Repeated tests produced treble readings that were to ridiculous to bother recording (I know, scientific sacrilege!). "Up to the top?" Still several dB above the line at 16K, and just a little below at 20K, where there is not supposed to be any response from a K77. An odd anomaly was that the treble readings were even more outrageously high when we used the digital output of the CD player, rather than the analog one. Go figure.

Anyway, when we once again have firm walls and floor, and have the Beheringer mic, we'll start over, just for a sense of completion. Any advice is welcome.

After the room tuning is over, I'll eschew all of this stuff, and use my equipment for nothing but music and movies. If not addicted.

* Excerpts from liner notes: "Frequency modulated noise at third octaves, for acoustical measurement ... signals made by Dr. Benjamin Bernfeld, acoustical engineer from Strasbourg University ... uses the principle of an aleatory frequency modulation, enables one to obtain a spectrum comformable to international acoustic norms, although it maintains a level constancy at all frequencies similar to sinusoidal signals."

[IndyKlipschFan]

Dr. Who said, "It'd be fun to measure his room sometime - the acoustical treatment approach is a bit not what I would recommend based on the latest reading I've been doing, but you can't deny your ears and note that it sounds good."

So first off Dr Who, thanks!

I, too, would love to learn what it reads out as well. If I did anything right, I did things from what has been mentioned and proved here over n over from Picky, mOOn, and countless other theaters I have either felt I trusted the owners advice, and or heard them in my lifetime. Add to that, what I have read over the years in HT Magazine, Stereo Review, HT for Dummies, The Complete Guide to High End Audio, Home Theater for everyone, Even a visit to Disney World at the world showcase, (Where I got my 16" of insulation around everything front and back that was not a speaker. They had special TV, Movie studio type special insulation behind chicken wire. LOL) to some high end theaters in friends houses too. Let alone our own stereo stores like Ovation and Technology Interiors here in Indy, and from people like Trey Canon, Steve Phillips, Michael Colter true Klipsch Lovers in their hearts to impart advice from as well.

What also might be a perfect HT room, might be terrible for music or in my case Karaoke too. Add to that, what can you afford to spend, or even what you really want to as well. I have been in a million dollar + home theater in Florida. He used "buttshakers" in real theater seats. It is a good novelty, but irritated me to no end after a while.. Try watching football with vibrating seats..LOL. The movie theater seats are great for about an hour... a typical NFL game is longer... and they become very uncomfortable after some time in them. The best part about his theater I stole as an idea was this. A real popcorn machine like the ones at the movie theaters, LOL. (Smaller version of course.. but OMG great popcorn in the kettle style popcorn machines.)

In my own case, even though the room dimensions and design of everything was mine... I took some heat for not completing the whole thing with my own hands. (You have to know your own limitations in anything you do. LOL) I can assure you, I hammered some framing, I admit it, I did nothing as far as hanging drywall, I did do some sanding after mudding though... as well as mop the floors 3x with my wife getting every bit of drywall dust removed... before the carpet was installed. We both touhed up some painting, hung lights, re positioned speakers etc., etc., but again the emphasis was to try to get it done the best we could. Bottom line is this, so what if I did not do it all myslef..?? The results are great.

I am amazed at Colterphoto1's setup when I go over. I was not so sure how the program really works with the Yamaha receiver he has, but the results again are great. We used to argue the Cornwall vs La Scala "ideal theater" and without great subs the Cornwalls will win hands down... Add the THX subs and the La Scalas when dialed in right come to life as a true system that your ears just love! (Someone once said if you like that big K horn sound.. La Scala sound.. It is hard to go to any other speaker.. And BTW, timbre does matter too!)

Dr Who, your learning so much, so fast, from many different angles.. I have sung in world class choral groups growing up to singing in rock bands in HS and College and yes, even karaoke today.. (it is ok to laugh, I do, too, at myself...all the time.) We all have things artistically we know that sounds good to us or how to make ourselves sound good. Just remember this. I can almost guarantee from Handdel's Messiah, Vivaldi's Four Seasons, to Pavarotti (who can't read music BTW) to Elvis, Stones, Beatles, The Doors, Led Zep, Green Day, Guns and Roses, Van Halen, U2, Clapton, Mellencamp, most rock bands you love even today, I venture to say NONE of them went to a "writers school" or university to learn how to perform better. (There has to be someone right? I just wonder who they are?) The truth is this, they felt it in their soul, crated "a sound," (most of the time from their idols, too,) and the band grew out of that. Hearing all types of music live is also important. (I am not including the current formula of pop stars we have today that show up in a studio with tunes written for them and "fixed" in the studio after they sing them too.) So listen to live stuff... Especially stuff you do not have a taste for all of the time. Broadden your horizons.

Even interpretation, take Yo Yo Ma on a cello vs someone else playing the same piece. Perlman on the violin vs someone else... They make their instruments come alive. I can almost remember in awe Bing Crosby and David Bowie together combining two songs together yet it worked... Your too young to appreciate it, but look here...

One of the more surreal moments in pop music history took place September 11th, 1977, when the leading American pop star of the first half of the Twentieth Century met and performed with one of the more innovative rock 'n' rollers of the last half of the Century. Bing Crosby was in London on a concert tour and to tape his yearly TV Christmas special. It was Bing's idea that he should have as a guest on his TV show a young star. Someone suggested David Bowie. Bing had never heard of David, but his kids had, and so an invitation was sent to the rock star. David, as it turned out, was a secret fan and jumped at the chance to perform with him.

Bing's idea was that he and David would perform 'The Little Drummer Boy' as a duet. Bowie felt the song did not showcase his voice very well, so the writers added 'Peace On Earth', which suited Bowie's voice quite well. The two musical spokesmen of different generations met for the first time on the morning of the taping, rehearsed for an hour and finished their duet in only three takes. Bing was impressed with David, and gave him his phone number at the end of the taping. Bing told an interviewer four days later that he considered Bowie "a clean cut kid and a real fine asset to the show. He sings well, has a great voice and reads lines well. He could be a good actor if he wanted."

Bing died a month later, and the public did not see their performance until after his death. The duet generated much interest, and was excerpted to become a perennial TV music video, a best-selling 45-rpm single and, eventually, a computer CD-ROM. Some viewed the joint performance of Bing and Bowie as a symbol of the end of the intergenerational wars of the '60s and '70s. In 1999 TV Guide chose the duet as one of the 25 best musical television moments of the century (June 5 issue).

See it here too..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKTHvW2JcAA

The only reason I bring it up is it is so wrong on so many levels. Yet, it is fantastic. Music is sometimes magical. It just happens out of luck and grabs at you. it touches you.

What I am trying to say in a round about way is this. Yes, there are rules and designs in great theaters and opera houses that seem to be duplicatable that have stood the test of time. To duplicate that experience in our own little "home versions of theaters" takes some magic in the pre amps ability to process that info that was recorded we hope well on the disc. And luck.

In my opinion, there is a "art" in this luck of combining equipment to get it right. THX will not give out a perfect room design size, but you can become a THX certified installer and tweek someone in their house a room to a room now with THX specs. It might sound great on THX ceritified discs.... and rotten on others. Just like DTS is not 100% of the time better than Dolby Digital. You get a certified letter I guess you can show to all of your friends... whatever, you get my point..... hahahhaahaha

One of the best rooms by far in the worst possible place to hear everything I have ever heard is the Klipsch Demo booth at CEDIA. It is pie shapped, has three levels of seating, I think they even use 9.1 sound LOL, but the OMG feeling of getting lost in the performance is there. They really should post the size and someone should duplicate it as a HT. (I am serious here, it is outstanding!) OK, maybe spread the sides a little up front.. see... Even I show my bias... Do we ever get 100% nirvana happiness? It is tough to do in this quest.

Bottom line is this. There is a lot of luck in this "art" of creating a HT experience in your house. Just like we all like certain brands of speakers too over others. Take what you can from others experience, yes. But the final judgement is in your own ears and your own tastes and hopefully in the end... your own bias and enjoyment too! We can spec it out to perfect, but it might sound like crap!

[IndyKlipschFan]

IMO... The Cirque Du Soliel shows are as close to a rock and opera for todays tatses including a circus visual we have to day that still works. You can't even try and explain it, because I think everyone takes something away from it too different.

http://www.amazon.com/Cirque-Soleil-Anniversary-Collection-1984-2005/dp/B000BK4CBW/sr=1-1/qid=1164425679/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-5285921-3698500?ie=UTF8&s=dvd

Amazon.com
Cirque du Soleil's Anniversary Collection 1984-2005 is a 12-disc retrospective of the Canadian troupe's distinctive brand of performance, involving the fantastic feats of acrobatics and athleticism, balance and contortion; the single-ring techno circus; the multicolored lights and costumes; the abstract story lines of fantasy and self-discovery; the music that fuses rock, New Age, and various world influences; and the madcap clowns that prey on their live audiences. The programs included are La Magie Continue (1986); Cirque Reinvente (1989); Nouvelle Experience (1991); Saltimbanco (1994), the 1994 documentary retrospective A Baroque Odyssey; the Amsterdam-set Quidam (1999); Allegria (1999), the live Sydney show; the Chinese-influenced Dralion (2000), in its standard, non-Superbit release; the relatively short IMAX film Journey of Man (2002); Varekai (2002), from Toronto; La Nouba (2003), from Walt Disney World; and Midnight Sun, strikingly staged outdoors at the 2004 Montreal International Jazz Festival.

That's a lot of aerial feats, tricks, and tumbling, but the set is not designed to absorb in one sitting. Rather, viewers can sample both the simpler early shows and the stunning later performances that, with their 5.1 sound and widescreen pictures, are perfectly suited to home theaters. Compiling 12 previously released DVDs in space-saving Thinpaks at an economical price, the Anniversary Collection is nearly all the Cirque du Soleil you could ever want, but completists should note that the set does not include the feature film Allegria: An Enchanting Fable, the bonus disc of Varekai, the reality-TV show Fires Within, and the 13-part variety series Solstrom. --David Horiuchi

Product Description
This anniversary collection celebrates the achievements of the world renowned Cirque du Soleil. The collection includes 11 Cirque du Soleil productions plus a bonus DVD of Midnight Sun, a once-in-a-lifetime special event captured on DVD. The title within this colorful collection are: A Baroque Odyssey, Allegria, Cirque Reinvente, Dralion, Journey of Man, La Magie Continue, Nouvelle Experience, Quidam, Saltimbanco, Varekai, and La Nouba.

---------------------------------------------------------

This is what I have. I have seen three of the shows live. Two at Disney World in different years, and one in Las Vegas. The Collection, so far, is amazing.

[jackpod]

Here is what I have in Cirque DVD's

Cirque Reinvente, Allegria, Soleil De Minuit, La Nouba, Fire Within, Nouvelle Experience, Journey Of Man, La Magie Continue, Solstrom, A Baroque Odyssey, Varekai, Saltimbanco, Dralion, Quidam.

Also because current running shows are not available on dvd, they do have audio CD's which are great in themselves. I have "O" and Mystere on cd, quite nice

[meagain]

WHO!!! "Yep, even khorns need subwoofers - but that's like signing your death warrant here on the forum...I'll go get my rope ready."

[:S] "I'll" provide the rope. No need to worry about that. (Yes, I find your statement incredulous)

[IndyKlipschFan]

WHO!!! "Yep, even khorns need subwoofers - but that's like signing your death warrant here on the forum...I'll go get my rope ready."

Hahahah I can prove that with the RSW 15" in most if not all movies..98% of the time. It is awesome.. Anyone saying you do not need a great sub in any HT application is kidding themselves.

Now with music... I prefer them off 90% of the time.. Go Figure?

OK, Hang me too!

[meagain]

Yes, I assumed Who was referring to music. Indy - are you talking that 10% with music on Scalas or Khorns? I'd agree with Scalas. Not Khorns (for music). In fact, I would think it would degrade things and unbalance the heck out of everything. I just can't see it or even fathom needing or even desireing a sub with khorns. And I'm a bass freek.

[DrWho]

In fact, I would think it would degrade things and unbalance the heck out of everything.

That's only if it's dialed in incorrectly. And you would want a sub too when the melody is totally chopped off. [] You're just not listening to the right music []

[meagain]

So you're saying I'm missing bass that the Khorn doesn't handle. Below.... what is it again?..... 32-33hz? Like bass pedals? I would seriously like to know what that would be and how much of it there is out there. I'm still having a hard time with the concept of needing a sub with properly positioned khorns w/good appropriate gear. Tell me again what I'm missing Who.

[DrWho]

You're in the Chicago area, no? Perhaps we should meet up sometime so I can demonstrate [] Or heck, give me a mailing address and I'll send you a CD...though I told that to Richard and have yet to make his too []

[johnyholiday]

Were the graphs of this expedition shredded ?

[DrWho]

They be on a laptop with no network connection - so the old fashioned method of burn a copy load a copy will need to be used...

However, Mike, if you drag the laptop over to your office where you've got the router you should be able to access the internet on the laptop and post them that way...

[Mike Lindsey]

Hey Who... did you get the money? I sent it on Thanksgiving and haven't heard back from you.

Mike

[Duke Spinner]

Hey Who... did you get the money?

Mike

ya .....

how didja think he got to Colt's ...???? [6]