Choosing an amp on the basis of tone.....

[pauln]

No, just giving the DFH a read through - everyone should. I read the originals back when I was working for a Klipsch dealership in the early eighties... loved them ever since.

So it sounds like you would be interested in the Forum seeking out some new things to explore and discuss in 2007? Now would be a good time to think about what these might be. Something I notice reading the DFH is that almost all the central topics are examined there - seems like the heavy lifting was done many years ago by the great thinkers, designers, and engineers... apart from new technologies which I don't care for (digital, subs, new materials) what is really new for audio? Not just new, but better?

OK, not drinking but I admit I guess I'm a little depressed today after listening to hours of youngster music last night. Almost all of it had the irritating drum machine fasion show runway music beat, the rest spanned amateur kid bands and clearly incompetent "artists" trying to be "outside" and exploratory but revealing total fear of non-comformity to the formulaic schlock apparently required by the current "music" industry... and all masterly reproduced from a laptop, pair of "speakers" the size of cell phones, and a "sub" half the size of a box of cereal with a 3" "woofer". Oh, and they liked it loud . . . oh, the humanity!

[Parrot]

Low power SETs don't have the wide dynamic swings...

Sure they do! Look at PWK's chart - my interpretation is 3.5 SET systems exceed 115dB peaks on big heritage (the values sited are for single systems so double them for stereo; with a 3.5 like the Wrights, they go into A2 mode beyond 3.5W to peak at 8W/ch. All the chart values are with 10dB of peak headroom above average level.

Elsewhere in the DFH he stats a few times that 2W is sufficient for full concert level with the big heritage and gives examples of using 10W to fill large venues (much larger than home listening environments).

As Who points out, dynamic range extends to the quiet end, too. SETs do this well because they are clean and resolve the details...

I don't know why you want to argue with Coda about this when it took him more than three years to reach this point.

It looks to me like you are halving the value in the chart, rather than doubling it. Also, keep in mind an important word PWK mentions about the chart, that it is midband. Low-watt amps fall apart on bass, not midrange and highs. That's why some people bi-amp or tri-amp.

Please cite where it is in DFH that PWK makes the claims you claim he made about "2W is sufficient for full concert level with the big heritage and gives examples of using 10W to fill large venues."

Who says SETs are clean and resolve the details? Everyone knows they are prone to noise. Noise masks low-level details, drowns it in unwanted signal. Not all SET amps are created equal or sound equal, of course, but I think it's safe to say they all have to work really hard at the noise problem, or the owner can just accept it as the price he must pay.

[coda]

My understanding of dynamic range is the point between the quietest level to the loudest sound level. Since so little power is required to reach loud levels with high efficiency speakers maybe it's something of a moot point to go over. But can't say I ever recall describing the Wright 3.5s as full range amps, though they are dead quiet.

I think the Amp Power Rating Table in Vol. 16 No. 1 gives 2W an average SPL of 100dB, with peaks 10dB above average.

To restate the conclusion, sound quality (degree of accuracy of the original sound wave) will be better at 2W, versus 10W . . 10W is better than 20W, and so on .

[DrWho]

For what it's worth, I don't think it makes sense to keep quoting things written a long time ago (especially from the DFH of all places). How does anyone know if any of these authors didn't change their mind later in life after learning more? A very simple example is that of the tractrix horn...PWK defended the exponential horn adamently in the times of the DFH, but it was only post 80's that he started arguing tractrix was superior. PWK was only a man and not perfect. Awesome yes, but not perfect and learning every day. Surely it makes more sense to quote the more modern experts in the field? You know, the ones standing on the shoulders of the old giants...

One can easily predict average power consumption levels, or if you're feeling lazy there are plenty of online calculators. But if the issue is so important to you, then you could always just bloody measure it. For all the time spent discussing it...

Ultimately, the peak SPL at the listening position is going to determine the absolute minimum wattage required from the amplifier. Great, but the same minimum doesn't apply to everyone - and those that require more power aren't necessarily blasting their ears out. 100W is barely sufficient to cover all of my listening habits and music (and ever notice I'm the first to run out when y'all start cranking it at the pilgrimages?)...but if someone is going to sit down and try to apply meaningless general statements, then double the speaker power handling is the industry standard accepted minimum.

But really, I have no clue what it has to do with timbre (except when you're talking about clipping) []

[pauln]

"But really, I have no clue what it has to do with timbre (except when you're talking about clipping)."

PWK's emphsis on low level power for high efficiency speakers was that it promotes good timbre, tone, sound - lower distortion from the speaker. The big heritage were designed to survive high power but not intended to play pure music at high amp power. In one of the DFH missives PWK writes that the speakers could have been redesigned for playing music at high power, but the result would be a loss of fidelity. Doubling the power handling may be conventional for non-horns but PWK did not recommend it for his speakers. The folks that ran their Klipsches with 100W+ amps is what drove PWK to include tweeter protection, change the warranty for blown tweeters, and write a stream of DFH notes about properly using low power (10W).

I imagine that the move to Tractrix was a fasion compromise to allow the sale of skinny tall speakers.

[Jeff Matthews]

SPLs (average 110 to 115 dB with peaks 10 dB higher). That's loud.

As amplifier power increases, the degree to which the speaker output reproduces the original sound, the sound quality, decreases.

Agree or disagree?

Or someone is suggesting you can have both?

Are you suggesting this statement means something other than "As you turn the knob clockwise, distortion increases."?

I was surprised to see all this is still going on. I will have to admit that I thought I was listening to alot more power than about 60 watts average through my Crown (if I crank it real loud), but NosValves showed me otherwise. What I do not recall is what the wattage output was during peaks.

For those of you who love the sound of clipping, enjoy your low powered amps or keep the music low. If you do not enjoy the sound of clipping, you can at least have that "benign" sounding clipping from tube amps. Me? I like to have no clipping.

If I was going to spend $1000 or so on an amp, I can assure you it would not be for 5 or 10 watts. What's the point of having these amazing Klipsch LOUDSPEAKERS if you don't turn it up loud from time to time? Otherwise, you might as well get one of those Bose 3-2-1 systems. They sound brilliant at moderate volumes.

[Allan Songer]

What's the point of having these amazing Klipsch LOUDSPEAKERS if you don't turn it up loud from time to time? Otherwise, you might as well get one of those Bose 3-2-1 systems. They sound brilliant at moderate volumes.

No they don't.

[Jeff Matthews]

Yes they do. []

[Parrot]

"But really, I have no clue what it has to do with timbre (except when you're talking about clipping)."

PWK's emphsis on low level power for high efficiency speakers was that it promotes good timbre, tone, sound - lower distortion from the speaker. The big heritage were designed to survive high power but not intended to play pure music at high amp power. In one of the DFH missives PWK writes that the speakers could have been redesigned for playing music at high power, but the result would be a loss of fidelity. Doubling the power handling may be conventional for non-horns but PWK did not recommend it for his speakers. The folks that ran their Klipsches with 100W+ amps is what drove PWK to include tweeter protection, change the warranty for blown tweeters, and write a stream of DFH notes about properly using low power (10W).

I imagine that the move to Tractrix was a fasion compromise to allow the sale of skinny tall speakers.

This is a gross distortion of what PWK wrote. Let's see the quotes, Paul N., not your interpretations.

The facts are that PWK recommended 20W per channel as a MINIMUM.

In Dope from Hope, V. 16, no. 1, Jan. 1977, revised Nov. 1980: "The 'official' KLIPSCH recommendation is still to use amplifiers rated at no more than 100 watts per channel in our systems . . ." Note that PWK did NOT say Don't ever dream of using an amplifier over 10 watts. He did NOT say Use only low-watt SET amps. He did NOT say You'll be happy with millivolts of power.

[Parrot]

Putting 60W average into a set of Heritage speakers probably generates about 30% harmonic distortion. Many people have an aversion to that level of distortion.

I don't know if you are deliberately trying to muddy the waters here or not, but nobody, including Jeff, ever puts 60W average into Heritage speakers in their homes. Perhaps you are hoping that a careless reader will think that means running a 60W amp into Klipsch will produce 30% harmonic distortion, which is totally untrue.

[Jeff Matthews]

I think this is what Jeff said above: I will have to admit that I thought I was listening to alot more power than about 60 watts average through my Crown (if I crank it real loud), but NosValves showed me otherwise. What I do not recall is what the wattage output was during peaks."

I read that as he was putting 60W average into his speakers "when cranked loud." Maybe I read it wrong.

He read me right. Not that I sit there and listen all the time at that level, but I have on occasion, played a song or two loud like that.

[Parrot]

I think this is what Jeff said above: I will have to admit that I thought I was listening to alot more power

than about 60 watts average through my Crown (if I crank it real loud),

but NosValves showed me otherwise. What I do not recall is what the

wattage output was during peaks."

I read that as he was putting 60W average into his speakers "when cranked loud." Maybe I read it wrong.

Obviously you read it wrong. "NOSValves showed me otherwise." Jeff thought one thing, and was shown that he was incorrect.

EDIT: And now Jeff is back to thinking he put 60W average into his speakers. Didn't happen, Jeff, no matter what you think.

[Allan Songer]

Putting 60W average into a set of Heritage speakers probably generates about 30% harmonic distortion. Many people have an aversion to that level of distortion.

I don't know if you are deliberately trying to muddy the waters here or not, but nobody, including Jeff, ever puts 60W average into Heritage speakers in their homes. Perhaps you are hoping that a careless reader will think that means running a 60W amp into Klipsch will produce 30% harmonic distortion, which is totally untrue.

Hey, Jeff just admitted that he DOES pump 60 watts of Crown power through his Heritage--only for "a song or two."

Wow. That's must REALLY be LOUD. And REALLY distorted too!

[Jeff Matthews]

It is really loud. At that level, you can definitely tell the sound quality is degrading, but it still sounds pretty good. Any louder, and it would cross the threshhold of sounding like crap.

The beauty of it is the amp does not even get warm, let alone hot.

[Parrot]

"I don't know if you are deliberately trying to muddy the waters here or not,.......Perhaps you are hoping that a careless reader "

========================

Questioning my motives or my hopes, and implying they are improper is a personal attack. I'd ask politely that you stick to the material presented and make your argument without inferring about my motives. I report all these kinds of ad hominem attacks to the moderator.

Anyone can read for himself and anyone can infer motives for himself. When someone makes a post, that post is subject to interpretation based on what is said, past posts by the same poster, and possible motives. If you don't like the way someone interprets a post you have made, that's too bad. The only solution is not to post, because you can't force people to take a particular post precisely the way you want them to take it.

[Parrot]

Everyone can agree, including Jeff, that Jeff is the odd man out. But the fact remains that Jeff doesn't know how many watts he's putting into his speakers and is only guessing. Arguing over Jeff's guessing is rather pointless.

[Parrot]

Right. Jeff, so really what I am saying is that some folks wouldn't enjoy that. That degraded sound on the verge of crap. But, that shouldn't imply that only Bose speakers are right for them. They just
"prefer" low distortion sound over the more degraded kind.

I think it's safe to say that no one would enjoy that, including Jeff. A 60W amp is good for peaks, control of bass, and headroom. It isn't to dump 60W into an amp constantly.

[Jeff Matthews]

But it's not a 60-watt amp. A 375 watt amp will do fine dumping 60 watts continuously. You know, I could be wrong about the 60-watts, but I doubt it. Here's why. When we tested all this stuff at Craig LeMay's (Born2RockU), he had a sound meter. We were steady around 115 dB with peaks above 120. That seems to match the Klipsch dB/wattage chart pretty well. We also A/B'd with the VRD's at the same levels and kept blowing fuses in the KHorns. I am sure it was because we clipped the VRD's, and you know their wattage.

Again, I will admit this is not normal listening volume. It is not even listening volume at wild parties. It is, as the chart says, "Too Damn Loud!" That's why I don't make a habit of it. I don't think I'm the odd man out because I crank it like that on occasion. It's just sort of a "test" of the emergency broadcast system. []

[Jeff Matthews]

For you that have KHorns or LaScalas, are you saying you never tempted their limits by cranking it hard? I'd be surprised if that is true - but maybe it is. If I had a Porsche, I'd fly in it every now and again. That's why I refuse to ride motorcycles. I'd probably kill myself on one.

[anarchist]

Let me see. Average 60 watts into a pair of Khorns is approximately 125 dbs average. So Jeff is listening to music in a house (I presume) at sound levels equivalent to a jet plan taking off on a runway while he is standing 200 ft. away or standing next to an air raid siren. If Jeff is accurate, Jeff will be deaf before long... if his house doesn't fall in on him first.