Choosing an amp on the basis of tone.....

[DrWho]

Choosing amps on the basis of tone anyone?

You really need to define tone in terms of things that can be measured (or at least hypothetically measured).

You talking frequency response? Signature sound of the distortion? Clipping behavior?

I think the reason these issues always come back down to amplifier power is because most every amp (regardless of topology) is going to sound 90% identical when operating in "pleasant" regions of their operation.

[Duke Spinner]

I think You can safely add " Resolution " .....to that list Who ....

that's probably what the SET guy's are really pushing, at the expense of other attributes

not that a Krell, or Crown Studio Reference doesn't have it ....

and ...MDeneen both Crown, and Krell ....match output devices...natch not on say, the Crown CE, or XL stuff

but the K, SR, Macro, I-T...etc

c'mon .. no different than matching output tubes ...

[rigma]

Maxg I was just setting up Craig to get him to commit that Mark's
products and service are top notch and to remind him how good a friend
Mark has been to him.

Craig: Being bull headed is one thing,
but being totally disrespectful to a loyal friend on a public forum is just wrong! The
saying "what goes around comes around" is something you should think
about. It is so much better than "but mama Mark started it"

rigma

[Jeff Matthews]

Craig and Mark, just remember this. When we were kids, we would get into fights with our best friends and still be best friends an hour later. The problem with adults is they act like they have more to prove by sustaining the ill feelings. You both should just drop it and shake hands and be friends. How about one of you unselfishly extending an olive branch?

[Duke Spinner]

the higher end Crown are also matched I see. So riddle me this---do the ones with matched outputs cost more than the others? If yes, then perhaps COST has something to do with price and performance? (an older part of this argument)

not sure where yer goin' with this, Mark ..??

yes, Cost/ Performance.. that's true of any amp ....

the CE, XL series are cheap throwaway's.....Cheap's the operative word ...

most vintage amps use the same TO package output devices

some like my Phase 400... really Demand matched Output devices

still, I see it no different than matching Output Tubes ..

What..??

Put your old Marantz 8b in a lineup with a MC 225 and isn't it really trivial to hear the tone differences?

from our previous conversations, while I had a Merlin, you are aware that I am a previous Paragon owner..

never heard the Marantz 8....

where does the Paragon fit into that line up ..??

[]

[Duke Spinner]

I'd go with the Paragon ..

AR... just to damn Cold .....

Ya .... lotsa ...Negative feedback ....[]

YOU .....

need to listen to a Real SS amp...

Pass, Krell, Crown I-Tech, or Studio Reference..

so we're all in the same Price ballpark

bear in mind, I have plenty of Tube amps, too.... QuickSilver, for one

when bi-amping, I run 6L6 mids...tube bass just too soft ......

Yes, Craig ....I haven't heard VRD's ....[]

i know, I know ...it's all us old Sound guy's ... that want ...Thwack ...!!!

[Parrot]

Another example, I had not one but TWO guys at RMAF who came and covered their ears until I had the sound down to well - a whisper, really. I inquired of both, I as am wont to do, and both said they would be in extreme pain at louder levels.

This gets back to what I mentioned before. People with damaged hearing are the likeliest ones to want to have music playing softly. Otherwise it hurts them. People who play loud music, you have to assume, do not have damaged hearing. They may eventually, but there is no evidence I'm aware of that listening to realistic levels of music is damaging to the ears. OSHA guidelines and the like talk about hours of exposure at high dBs, not fractions of a second or a few seconds of musical peaks.

Hearing damage you notice in oldsters is often the result of work environment, like auto manufacturer workers standing near huge presses for 8-10 hours a day, day after day, week after week, year after year, without any hearing protection. PWK had hearing damage from firing mortar in his military service. That is so much more damaging than listening to a symphony that it's not even in the same country, let alone the same ballpark. Protecting ears with earplugs or earprotectors didn't happen in the 1950s and 1960s. Some workers *still* won't wear earplugs, rules or not. So, without good data and good analysis of good data, you're going to find an iPod taking the rap for someone's hearing damage when the real culprit was a metal stamping press in a factory.

As an aside note, I wear ear protectors when I'm chainsawing, even when I'm mowing the lawn.

Anyway, back to amps, what were those two guys doing at an audio show if they can't stand to hear anything above whisper level? Geez, who would want to design music systems for them?

I know the natural volume of a cello. We've got a couple players in the house. So if I play a cello record, and it's 30dB down from that, that's grossly not high fidelity. Same if it's 30dB too loud. It would sound like hell. Not that the stereo wouldn't handle it, but that the cello wouldn't sound like a real cello anymore, because it would be louder than a cello could ever naturally be.

It doesn't have to be exact, and there's many factors involved, like how loud a performance originally was, the size of the room it was recorded in, how loud it was mixed and mastered at, etc. But I maintain that it's not difficult to dial in the right volume. I guess this is assuming undamaged ears, though, based on your example.

This setting of volume is just one factor. Paying attention to dialing it in right does not preclude being interested in tone. It is not an either/or situation. A world class musician doesn't pay $50,000 for his bow for his three million dollar cello and not care about tone. But . . . nor does he ignore what volume he's playing at. They're both important. There's no dichotomy.

[Audible Nectar]

"Put your old Marantz 8b in a lineup with a MC 225 and isn't it really trivial to hear the tone differences?"

I dunno, Mark - that's just the kind of thing that does interest me, so I guess it depends on one's experience. If you've been there/done that, I suppose it might be trivial - but that's just the kind of thing that I'm very interested in. I can certainly understand why amp/gear builders like yourself might be bored with it, but I get geeked about such things (and am also not old enough to have been around when this gear was out originally, so I'm making up for lost time). I'm also becoming a "caphead" in a hurry, having discovered what differences those make in the tonality of a given piece of gear, or speaker.

I am one that happens to believe that EVERYTHING in the signal path has some "tonality/signature/footprint/flavor" effect on the sound. The gear, caps, tubes, crossover caps and type - it all matters to some degree. EVERYTHING has some "flavor". EVERYTHING. In my opinion, there is no such thing as "tasteless, odorless, and colorless" in terms of "straight wire with gain" as a goal. It would be impossible to know for sure, and while certain systems and components do better at accomplishing this goal via subjective and objective measurements, sometimes gear is purchased because it has specific flavor too. It's like ice cream - you eat it because it tastes good. Might not be the optimal human food, but it's pleasurable, even though it isn't necessarily good for you. Maybe we could say that negative feedback is the ice cream of the audio industry, hehehe.....

I see my Mac system as "ice cream", where the VRD/JM/HT "system to be" will be the more "truth" based system. I KNOW the Macs aren't "correct" in every aspect. That's OK - in fact, I like that system because of its flavor. There are other approaches where a more truthful/accurate result is desired, and where other tonal aspects come to the fore.

So of course I buy amplifiers on the basis of tone. While the objective measurements are good to know, and can explain a great deal, the subjective is really what counts, even when straight wire with gain is the goal. "OK, it specs good and is built great in theory, but how does it sound"? There's so much give and take in this hobby; the combinations are almost infinite.

[Gilbert]

Craig: Being bull headed is one thing, but being totally disrespectful to a loyal friend on a public forum is just wrong! The saying "what goes around comes around" is something you should think about. It is so much better than "but mama Mark started it"

Based on the tactics you employ to make your point, I think you should seriously be considering the same thing.

Why not just come straight out and say what's on your mind, it's certainly better (from a personallity perspective) than trying to setup crippling snares. Personally, I'll take bull headed and straight forward any day of the week, over a,.... dare I say, a sneaky snake.

[fini]

Mark,

Is the new avatar permanent, or just "Ohm for the Holidays?"

[NOSValves]

Craig: Being bull headed is one thing, but being totally disrespectful to a loyal friend on a public forum is just wrong! The saying "what goes around comes around" is something you should think about. It is so much better than "but mama Mark started it"

Based on the tactics you employ to make your point, I think you should seriously be considering the same thing.

Why not just come straight out and say what's on your mind, it's certainly better (from a personallity perspective) than trying to setup crippling snares. Personally, I'll take bull headed and straight forward any day of the week, over a,.... dare I say, a sneaky snake.

My sentiments exactly. Thanks Gilbert.

Craig

[maxg]

I am finding huge difficulty in phrasing this response to say what I want it to say. In the meantime - whilst I ponder it I would just like to thank everyone for largely getting back on topic and to thank Paul for an excellent and well thought out response.

Particularly good twist on the volume / deafness approach I thought - although I have no idea how much water it actually holds.

OK - over the last few years I have, fairly consistently, beat the drum of synergy. I think it interesting that we happily take a given amp and discuss its sound largely out of context - in other words without a detailed look at the supporting gear that goes to make the whole.

I cannot help wondering, therefore, that if we were to take the 2 amps recently discussed (Marantz and Mac) and then go about building a system around these - that we might not, in the end, result in similar sounding systems.

Obviously, on a Klipsch forum we can largely take it as read that the speakers are relatively consistent across the discussions - but I think I would stress the relatively and also point out the large disparity in listening rooms, chosen musical genre and, of course, ulitmate aim of the system owner.

We all want to spend our money creating a system that sounds good to us (presumably) but what comprises that good sound will vary from one individual to another.

I would also like to add that I think the concept of building a system around an amp is probably one of the rarer methods of developing your system. Most people I know have started with the speakers and worked backwards - or the source and worked forwards.

The net result - however, need not be that different. Starting from the point - I chose my speakers after a demonstration of them (when I bought the Heresies for example). Got them home - connected them to my existing system (an old Yamaha surround sound amp) and listened. This was a massively disappointing result. The next step was to make them sound as good as they did in the demo. This was achieved with a new integrated power amp (an Accuphase E211 at the time) - and from then on it was a case of how much further I could go - beyond the point that had convinced me to buy the Heresies in the first place.

When I replaced the Accuphase with a pair of monoblock tube amps and a pre-amp I did so having heard them driving (well almost driving) a pair of Magnepans (small ones). That demo inspired me to race home, grab my Heresies, bundle them into the car and head back to the shop to try them out. The tone of that system (amp plus Heresies) was massively different from the original demo (amp plus Magnepans). I prefered it.

When I got home the tone of the system in my living room was massively different again.

In other words - from that short version (but still too long - sorry) one amp - multiple "tones" depending on a variety of other factors.

[Audible Nectar]

"bear in mind, I have plenty of Tube amps, too.... QuickSilver, for one

when bi-amping, I run 6L6 mids...tube bass just too soft ......

Yes, Craig ....I haven't heard VRD's ....

i know, I know ...it's all us old Sound guy's ... that want ...Thwack ...!!! "

I'm a big fan of the 6L6 midrange too. I think that's a lot of why I am sooooo in love with the MC-30, even against other Macs - the fact that it is based around the 6L6 tube (tube rectification doesn't hurt either, excepting for the bass). I'm so addicted to the midrange of this amp that I don't even care that the bass isn't optimal - in fact, on some music, it is a positive attribute (more acoustic based music, for example - and that general "comfy" Mac feel, which I sometimes really like). I am like many Klipschers who primarily "live in the midrange", and the 30's target that area with excellence. Ain't nothin' like the midrange of MC-30s......they are kind of my "SET" amp of sorts.

Too much of a pain to biamp this system (although I've thought about it), but plan to leave well enough alone, and enjoy that system for what it is. For the "thwack" part of the program, we move to the HT, where this is the plan(And since you mentioned the VRDs.....) :

In the realm of "reasonably affordable by mortals" (under 3K) the VRDs handle the tube liquidity with the power and bass authority not normally seen in tube gear at this price. They are quite "ballsy" - a kick drum through VRD's will give you some "thwack" you will not be expecting!!! Very unique in that regard. I'll be running a pair of these through the main channels of my HT (doing double duty as a 2 channel system with a Peach and HT bypass) - and if I really need to get some crazee low end, I've got a pair of JBL 4638 cabinets (each with 2 15" woofers powered by Crown) which will assure there will be all the "THWACK!!!!!" that is necessary. But for bass strictly run by two tube amps in a 2 channel rig, it's hard to beat a pair of VRDs at that price......and the other positive attributes of these that go along with them. You will get yer kick drum on with a pair of VRDs - and everything else you love about tubes. And they got just enough power (60 watts, but probably more like 100 on da peaks) that I can run them as my HT mains - an ideal fit.

Mark is correct that the positive attributes of tube performance at the sub 3K level makes tubes preferable vs. SS - although I do agree that some of these high end SS amps are reeeeeeealy good, and have good stuff all thier own - but they are also crazeee expensive. Tubes do the all important midrange better at a lower price.

[Deang]

It is my belief that if you are "offended" it is because you don't understand the difference between vigorous argument and personal attacks - diatribes.

A person doesn't have to be personally attacked verbally to be offended by a comment. In spite of all the key strokes you used to form your expounded explanation of the original comment for the obtuse and grammatically challanged among us -- I think it's fairly clear to all of "the Klipschters" here what you meant: That we occupy a small segment of the audiophile community, and that if we moved outside of this circle we would find out how uncultured and heathen we are in the execution of the hobby.

'"I think perhaps you and Paul and various guys here are listening at levels that most of the population would find painful" Here again, I base this on what I hear in people's homes."'

What little I understand about the English Language tells me that when you single people out by name -- you make it personal. Now, if you based the comment on what you hear "in people's homes", maybe you should name them by name instead of using two people who's homes you've never been in. Now, I can't think of two worse examples to use to make your point here. Craig does the great majority of his listening while working at the bench 12 hours a day, and he listens at background levels with FM and his music server. Paul listens to Classical music in a room the size Carlsbad Cavern, and loads the room up at comfortable and reasonable levels with a whopping 60 wpc. Now, "various guys" would certainly include me, I'm quite sure I go through periods where I listen louder than either of them. However, I haven't engaged in regular, high SPL listening in over a year -- and at my worse presently don't break much over 90dB. I listen with a 10 wpc chip amp and VRD's run in triode. I'm sure "most of the population" would include my small children, ages 1, 4, and 6 -- who spend a lot of time with me upstairs listening to music and watching movies. I'm a responsible adult and you can bet your *** I'm very cognizant of what overdoing the volume levels can do to their ears. No one here seems to be in much pain as they dance, clap their hands, and jump on the bed during the tunes. In short, if you need to use someone to make a point like that -- use Jeff.

Now finally, my comment said "perhaps" you are doing that because over the two days I was consistently reminded by Paul that 'realistic levels" would be required and that included marching bands and Black Sabbath and such. Those levels in a living room will not be wanted by all that many people.

The comments were an attempt to define what I thought Paul meant by "realistic levels". Some people tend to playback at levels they believe the original performance was played at. I used Marching Band music and Black Sabbath just for example's sake, and in part to lighten things up a bit. You didn't like it. fine.

[maxg]

No, it's just my new mantra as in oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

I kept meaning to ask you why you had an Omega as a picture. I thought your admiration for Greece was growing....

[Mike Lindsey]

I go away for a couple of days and all I can say is WOW!

It's good to be home, regardless. I just biased the VRD's, fired up the BBX and am spinning Joni Mitchell's Court and Spark on Nautilus (Dont say a word, Paul :-). Music to my ears...

Mike

[jacksonbart]

I am bored.

[meagain]

In the realm of "reasonably affordable by mortals" (under 3K) the VRDs handle the tube liquidity with the power and bass authority not normally seen in tube gear at this price. They are quite "ballsy" - a kick drum through VRD's will give you some "thwack" you will not be expecting!!! Very unique in that regard. I'll be running a pair of these through the main channels of my HT (doing double duty as a 2 channel system with a Peach and HT bypass) - and if I really need to get some crazee low end, I've got a pair of JBL 4638 cabinets (each with 2 15" woofers powered by Crown) which will assure there will be all the "THWACK!!!!!" that is necessary. But for bass strictly run by two tube amps in a 2 channel rig, it's hard to beat a pair of VRDs at that price......and the other positive attributes of these that go along with them. You will get yer kick drum on with a pair of VRDs - and everything else you love about tubes. And they got just enough power (60 watts, but probably more like 100 on da peaks) that I can run them as my HT mains - an ideal fit.

THAT is true! I get almost teary eyed thinking about the clean, tight, beautiful, pristine, 'Boom' I get with the VRDs and Khorns. It was a gamble for me as I've not heard them prior. I feared a tube amp wouldn't give me that. Wrong-o.

[Duke Spinner]

we are doing wine tasting here, right? And we get down to the really fine points. I have yet to hear (maybe that's the right phrase for me) an SS amp that has the liquid midrange of the BEST triode amps. . I use $3K because you can buy some fantastic sounding small wattage tube amps for that price or much less even.

Aaaahhh..

we're back to what ... Expectation's ...are

while I enjoy the "shimmer" that a Triode amp has ...

I want .. a more, overall realistic presentation, not so, say.. it's AR hard/cold

but Balanced ...???

$3k ..??

Crown Studio Reference... that amp own's it's particular market....

and that amp .has the Presentation ...Overalll ......that i indentify with as ....Accurate

[Deang]

Maybe you can detect the difference? Maybe not. I'd recommend you study the principles behind ad hominem arguments, diatribes and real arguments. If you don't want to, there's nothing I can do about it. You said, "if you used someone's name, that makes it personal." Well, that DOESN;T however make it a diatribe. Sorry about your level of understanding.

I understand the difference. No, you weren't verbally abusive, but like I said, one doesn't have to engage in diatribe, or personal attack to offend someone. For example: you can speak to someone in a condescending manner as you are to me above -- something else that is offensive.