Choosing an amp on the basis of tone.....

[Champagne taste beer budget]

You all are so silly. But I like to watch.

[NOSValves]

[Craig:] "My entire point in my original post that I entered this discussion was that the power of a given amplifier has nothing to do with whether it has nice pleasing "tone" or not. Why you went off on this tangent I have no clue. Diversionary tactic maybe?"

===============

Yes, well obviously we disagree, right? I had no problem understanding your belief that tone is independent of power the first time you posted it. You stated that, and I read it, and understood what you meant. Then you stated it again in BOLD. So----I simply disagree, and made my case for a different point of view based on my own experience, ok?

Contrary to your claim that I am on a tangent, or a diversion, I was simply making an argument as to why I believe tone is NOT independent of power. I don't care if you don't like, don't understand, or don't agree with that argument, but that doesn't mean it's a "diversion" or a tangent. Maybe to you when people assemble an argument you call that a diversion? Beats me. I'll waste no time dissecting your diction, because that WOULD be a diversion.

Also you say:

[Craig:] "Again what does mass produced products have to do with this discussion. I don't get it. Also I don't see where cost is a real issue. "

Well, I guess I am not at all surprised by those two comments. I doubt I can help you understand the parts of my argument you "don't get." There's very little I could add to what I said already. It would be silly to repeat, ok?

md

Mark,

You have become a person as of late that has no resemblance to the man I met on this forum 5 or 6 years ago. Of course it doesn't completely surprise me because I could see hints of it in are phone conversation as the last few years have passed. I hope what ever has come over you passes soon. Until it does I'm simply going to ignore your posts it seems the best course of action to me.

Craig

[ben.]

I think it's nice that we have two guys here that design and build tube gear that both use their ears in the process.

I'm not sure where the hostility is coming from, and I've read along here over the past couple days. Just the hearing damage comment, or is there something else at play here?

I probably don't want to know.

[rcarlton]

Gosh, I read the entire thread to see what happened[]. It looks like there was some editing going on. From what I can see, just some good natured disagreement, but no harsh words. Must have missed something[li].

[edwinr]

I bought my high power amplifier because it has good 'tone'. When I had my Klipschorns a few months ago, I had a lot of fun pulling out the various amplifiers I had purchased over the years. Some tube, some s/s, some 25ish watts per channel, some a lot more. Without out fail, in my listening session, which went on for weeks, I maintained very similar spl's no matter what amp I listened to. I find it interesting that I have an arbitrary 'comfortable listening level'. If I listen too loud, I don't enjoy the music. If I listen too soft, I just can't get into the music.

Now when I was swapping amplifiers, the one thing I did notice was the tonal quality of the amplifiers differed quite noticeably. Some sounded a little bright. Some sounded slow and ponderous. I believe I have worked out why this is so. Those amplifers that sounded a little bright and detailed had a bass response that rolled off quite early. They also featuered a somewhat exagerated treble response and maybe there was a peak or two thrown in as well. I beleive this is a deliberate ploy on the part of the designer.

The other slow sounding amplifiers featured extended bass, but they were 'fat' and again seemed to have some peaking in the bass response. I couple I had heard had 'fat' bass but with little extension. All sounded unnatural and difficult to llsten to. A couple of UK amplifers I heard, including the Creek 4040, avoided the bass peaks, and rolled off fairly early, but they maintained good extension. This is clever design. In this way with it's limited power supply, it didn't get into trouble.

What I have found is that bass reproduction is one of the more important aspects of amplifier design (from a lay point of view). If the desisgner doesn't get it right, the music suffers. Now when I bring in my big feller (Classe Model Twenty Five), all these other amplifers paled into insignifigance. The bass reproduction from this amplifier is stunning. It lays the foundation for ALL music, and the reproduction of the human voice.

I don't think all members in this Forum are all that concerned about loudness per se. Like most here I am more concerned with the headroom more powerful amplifers offer. I don't listen all that loudly.

[NOSValves]

Craig - -

I have no idea why you'd think it was a good idea to divert off here and post a personal diatribe. I think it's never a good idea to make ad hominem comments in public like this. But, I've seen it many times, so I should not be surprised.

Just as the other night, I am going to totally refrain from making an in kind response.

But, keeping with the subject and with your postings, I am going to offer this factual tidbit here. I don't enjoy being played as someone's sucker. Sometime in the afternoon you called me and requested some help from me on a fairly minor thing. Help which I responded to immediately. Regardless of the value of that help, I did what I always have done for five years, which is offer it to you. Now, about 4 hours or so later that same day, in the old SET thread, you posted the following diatribe to me:

QUOTE CRAIG: "This paragraph above is another huge pile of horse manure. I'm sorry Mark you need to get off the meds or something. Your presumptions are completely OUT OF LINE. Has it come to this just to scrap up some business or what??? HOW the hell do you profess to know at what volumes anyone listens at?? This from a guy that used to run mega watt SS amps on his Altec systems woofers and tell me he pegged the meters. Give me a break." END QUOTE

Now, even the moderator suggested you were out of line for some of those comments, and she had no idea that I am recovering from surgery and actually do have a lot of meds, or that earlier in the day you were calling me on the phone for more help which I provided graciously, as usual.

So, I'm sitting here a few hours later, and you say to me, "Has it come to this just to scrap up some business or what???" which might be the most ungracious, insulting thing anyone has said to me here. And you are supposed to be a friend whom I've been helping not four hours earlier in the same day?

So, I said then, I am not going to make those kinds of comments to you, and I elected instead to simply rebut your comments wherever I disagree with them. I've read carefully every one of my posts regarding your comments and they are simple, direct and to the point with no personal content - even if they are sharp. The sharpness is simply due to your total disrespect for me. Finding you could not bully me to your POV, you then posted yet another diatribe against me above. And that's all there is to the story. I don't actually expect a lot from most people, but from friends I expect a modicum of respect at least.

Rough comments from a stranger is something to be expected here. I've no problem with that. Diatribes from people whom you help regularly for five years are not. It's not a big thing to me, but it was frankly quite disappointing and a little surprising. Good luck to you.

md

P.S. Sorry folks, I don't like doing this personal stuff, but there was no choice here.

Mark,

Yup the help over the last few years as been one sided, Mark has done all the helping. I think the truth in the matter is your company would of had a much harder time getting off its feet if it was not for my promotion of your products. The very same thing can be said about me in regards to you but more from the technical hand holding you gave me early on. I would say were very much *** for tat on the favor end of things.

The question I called you with yesterday was a question I already new the answer too I really called you to see just what was going on with you and used that as an excuse to call. The SET thread was already going on for days I had just not bothered entering it at that point. I was shocked to see the man that used to laugh at the ludicrous claims of lower powered amps telling me the subject was just not worth posting about. To my surprise this same man is doing a 360 and is now trumpeting them as being tonal kings or something?

Nice quoting what I said but leaving out that in your previous post that you inferred that I was on the road to hearing damage along with a good portion of the klipsch speaker users and that the only way to really know what is going on with audio is to step out of the klipsch circle since we must be some alien bunch or something. Yup your post are sharp and have lots of hidden round about meanings but I get the just of it all the way. Their is no denying you have a much better command of the English language. You started this ugliness with the above mentioned post and I guess you see no reason to recognize that. You know the last time I seen you act similar to this was not long after I entered this forum and you were fighting constantly with Mobile Homeless.

Just to get the story straight.

I posted this in the SET thread which all honestly was just a joke more then anything (I wish in hindsight I had placed my normal winky smiley face maybe you would have taken it lighter). I was reading the thread and seen you claim a 7 watt amp would blister paint I almost choked.

mdeneen:

What I know for absolute certainly is that I have some little 7W amplifiers that drive my Belles into paint peeling levels far beyond any loudness level I would ever want to sit and listen to with any kind of source material I possess.

md

Mark,

I'm really beginning to worry about you. Slight exaggeration wouldn't you say? I realize your targeting the SET crowd but .................

Craig

You replied with this. (I'm pretty sure you edited part of this because I could swear originally Dean was crowned a future member of the hearing damage/painful listening crowd also.) Your reply had little to do with what I said and quoted you about and IMHO ended with a personal insult................. Most people would find my listening habits painful, yup that is not an insult.

"Hmmmm? Craig, on what basis can you suggest I am exaggerating? That's an odd statement to make, since it's nothing more or less than a subjective observation I make with my own ears.

I think I posted earlier that while at RMAF, I often asked people to set the volume themselves to the level THEY preferred. I was shocked. Most serious listeners (ones who coould actually make intelligent comments about the sonic attributes they were hearing) set the volume even LOWER than I had it, which was certainly no more than a couple watts. I did this to see what would happen to my 25W amps if users did what they wanted. Well, I could have taken the 7W amps and still had lots of headroom.

Again, "Klipschers" tend to be at the extreme end of high volume listening. Based on posts I've read over the past 5 years, I'd think a great many will have permanent hearing damage in the near future. I think perhaps you and Paul and various guys here are listening at levels that most of the population would find painful. Nothing wrong with that - it's just your taste. But, you might want to get out of the "Klipsch circle" to understand what other people are doing with stereos."

Honestly Mark who started all this???? I don't see where my single one sentence post deserves such a hostile response. You've changed drastically and as a long time friend I'm telling you I see it. If it ruins are friendship then so be it I've always been a blunt to the point straight shooter. If no one else around here has the guts to say it then so be it..

Craig

[joshnich]

I have learned a fair bit on this thread. Some about defensive people and thin skins, but most about ampifier design and the trade offs that a designer must make and the costs associated with them. I admit I am a complete moron when it comes to this sort of thing, but it sounds to me that bi amping would be the way to go. Lower cost for quality sound low or mid power for the mids and high end and more powerful ss for the bass. Since youre driving the bass with the high power, you wouldnt need to have the same level of tonal quality - just watts - so the cost should be reasonable.

Josh

[NOSValves]

I have learned a fair bit on this thread. Some about defensive people and thin skins, but most about ampifier design and the trade offs that a designer must make and the costs associated with them. I admit I am a complete moron when it comes to this sort of thing, but it sounds to me that bi amping would be the way to go. Lower cost for quality sound low or mid power for the mids and high end and more powerful ss for the bass. Since youre driving the bass with the high power, you wouldnt need to have the same level of tonal quality - just watts - so the cost should be reasonable.

Josh

Josh,

That is about the most ironic post I have ever seen under the current circumstances. If you would of asked Mark that a few short years ago he would of 200% agreed.

Craig

[fini]

I wonder how high the bidding would go on an Audiogon auction for 5 years of unlimited tech support from Mark Deneen...

[coda]

Mark, thx for entertaining the timbre measurement question. I'm also taking into account SET's pattern of producing
second harmonic distortion, which is the musical equivalent to adding
the same tone one octave
higher to form a chord, that tends to fatten the sound and be pleasing to the
human ear. Perhaps this ties back to timbre, whatever it is has
very natural results (primarily in the midrange) when putting
low-powered SET between an accurate source and an accurate speaker that
other amps seem to miss. If it can't quite be quantified in equipment, perhaps it can be addressed in the field of psychoacoustics . . what is considered objective versus subjective in this line of study is interesting anyway. I would want to think if a group of people share the same subjective perceptions, there would be some logical way to measure it back to the source, psychoacoustics measures the effects on the auditory nerve instead.

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/courses/spsci/c315_99_3/sld001.htm

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/matthews/ear.html

[Lascaladan]

Having been part of listening panels for equipment marketers and designers, there is a "sound" that goes with each design. Some people hear it immediately, some not at all,some hear it and not care,etc. The point I will make is this(an opinion). I know what I am looking for. I will examine, through retailers, magazines, the internet, other music listeners, and my own ears, what to try. If I like it, I will buy it(I will try at home before I buy). I listen loud. I love deep, tight and "rythmic" bass. I want a neutral midrange and a treble that is detailed and extended, but not metallic. I want a "system" that works well together, and a room that does not "get in the way". I want a system that creates an image and soundstage(I have found live music not to have this quality, other than the musicians are in front of me). I can go on and on. My point is we all look for things that are important to us. These things are different. The equipment we all use is different. If it gets us to that musical nirvana, this is all that matters. There is a lot of equipment used by others on this forum that I would not be happy with. Other than me, WHO CARES. Same goes for many of you. We are all looking for the same outcome, but not always the same sound(we all like Klipsch, though!). Lets us all enjoy.

[NOSValves]

Honestly Mark who started all this???? I don't see where my single one sentence post deserves such a hostile response. You've changed drastically and as a long time friend I'm telling you I see it.

==========================

I think you had a much wiser idea when you said you were simply not going to post about this any longer. I'd give that strategy some more thought. Now you are filling in with reams of nonsense here. Again, I'm not going to go there point by point just to roll in mud with you. As for "friends", yes, I have a few, some of them for 35 years even. So trust me on this point - none has ever made such obscene personal comments about me in public as you have over the past couple days. So, please, take a hint, OK?

The posting about loudness and potential hearing loss of people is a subject that has been discussed here many times, by many other people. It's a scientific and medical fact that loud music can hurt your hearing. I know, it has hurt mine. My assertion that many here listen at those levels is my opinion. I didn't say you were deaf. Nor Dean or anyone else. I know exactly what I said and in what context. I stand by that opinion. It's there for anyone to read. I said the levels many people listen at would be painful for a lot of people, and again that's my opinion. Again, that's no reflection on you personally. It's my opinion. That was a discussion - you can certainly hop in and disagree as strongly as you wanted to WITHOUT resorting to personal diatribes about my drugs, or my attempt at ginning up business and all the other personal nonsense you've now decided to drag around here. Paul Parrot made many posts rebutting mine, point for point, and not once did he resort to attacks on my person - NOT ONCE. Not once was he rude, obnoxious or boorish. He just made his best arguments. And I know how passionately he believes his argument, yet he felt no need to mock me, or post obscene comments about me.

I am not a kid. I think I understand what friendship is about. I think I have a sensible adult expectation of the meaning of the word. And this doesn't fit. So, really, my best advice is to not continue your ad hominem attacks her. I find it really offensive and distasteful.

And oh by the way, I can change any opinion I hold today tomorrow and what exact business is that of yours? If yesterday I liked sports cars and today I like station wagons, that allows you to pummel me?

md

You're doing just as much of the pummel treatment as anyone here old buddy. AND YOU STARTED IT WHETHER YOU WILL ADMIT IT OR NOT.

Have you ever listened to music with me? Do you have some microphone setup in my listening room that allows you to profess that I listen at painful and dangerous levels? You have no clue as to such an assumption or the right to suggest something of that nature about me or anyone else. Yes this very same thing has been mentioned on this forum before and if directed at me resulted in the same type of response. Your just as guilty as I am in this and if you were any kind of a reasonable man in your current state of mind you would admit it. Statements like that would never be stated by a true freind either especially considering the business we are both in. I suspect it was stated for all the wrong reasons which is the worst part about it.

Craig

[NOSValves]

I wonder how high the bidding would go on an Audiogon auction for 5 years of unlimited tech support from Mark Deneen...

It would take that long for you to learn a thing from him so I suggest you bid high.

[maxg]

You know I never throught........what I mean is that when I asked...........the point of this thread was to..........

What is it about amp threads?

Mention amp in the title of a thread and people start killing each other by page 4 - and it always gets to page 4 too - not many other subjects do - but amps puts a fire into people's bellies.

Now I dont want to get into the Craig / Mark thing - there is obviously something else going on there that no-one else knows about.

Now back to the original subject:

Tone - I am seeing references in responses to speed, bass, power again, but not too much to tone. Even speed and tone do not have to be related IME.

Just recently I reviewed a pre-amp for ACA. Tonally it was spot on - but I asked the question in the review - can it dance? It does not, imho, have the speed it should. Despite this - it did make a violin sound like a violin, a paino like a piano and Callas like Callas.

What it did not do was make fast popular music sound right.

Lets look at this another way. I go to someone's house to listen to their system - say an ACA meeting. We listen to the system and there is something wrong - the system is tonally off - something is amiss. We play a number of records (say) and they all come across this way. I would immediately suspect the cartridge alignment tracking as the culprit - or something else with the TT. We test the CD player - same problem - I would, in order, suspect:

The speakers.

The preamp.

The system's power supply.

The amp.

The wiring.

In other words - taking the TT to be 3 or 4 first choice things to check the amp comes in 8th or 9th. Even then I would suspect some kind of impedance mismatch or fault with the amp and so on before accepting that this was simply a tonally deficient amp.

Request:

Keep comments on this subject - other subjects in a new thread if you please.

No more personal attacks.

No references to power in the responses - I do not think this issue relates to the power of the amp.

Thanks

[fini]

I wonder how high the bidding would go on an Audiogon auction for 5 years of unlimited tech support from Mark Deneen...

It would take that long for you to learn a thing from him so I suggest you bid high.

HA! I think you're spot on there, Craig...

[NOSValves]

Mark its obvious that no matter what is said your going to go on acting like the perfect innocent party so I will take my first thought to heart I will just refrain from posting to you.

Craig

[George Roland]

A "straight wire with gain" is an ideal not a reality. Every amp I have ever heard sounded different from every other amp. If you have separates, pre-amps too are very differnt sounding. All I know to do is try out as many as you can and begin to narrow down on what suits you.

Good luck,

George

[edwinr]

Tone - I am seeing references in responses to speed, bass, power again, but not too much to tone. Even speed and tone do not have to be related IME.

What makes up 'tone' Max? When you were referring to tonal quality, I assumed it to be 'bright' or 'rich' sounding. Now if you're talking about the tonal quality of music instruments, well that's different. I believe when someone says an amplifier or cartridge has nice tone, they mean it has nice balance. The low frequencies and the high frequencies are in balance with the midrange. When we are talking about the tonal qualities of a SET amplifer, I believe this refers to the way this type of amplifier reproduces the musical signal. The midrange is more prominent and the low frequencies are more limited in extension, but there is some peak or bump to give the rich sound that many like. Similar to the BBC LS 3/5a. Maybe there's some high frequency roll off too. I don't mind the tonal quality of these amplifers at all. They sound rather nice. It's just the lack of power...

On the other hand some s/s amplifiers sound bloody awful. There is a 'steely' quality about them. Maybe there's a combination of factors here. They measure 'flat' so there's no nice bump in the low frequencies to impart some warmth to the sound. They also probably feature some rather nasty distortion (3rd order harmonic?) which our ears don't like. S/S amplifiers don't have to sound like that of course. Mine sounds great. Actually I'm not saying that because I own it. It's an ugly thing, the Classe. Bloody heavy. I was going to buy a tube power amp back when I bought the Classe - an Audio Research VT100. But I heard the Classe and I thought the thing sounded as good as the ARC, but it was half the price. I don't know how the Classe would go up against Craigs' VRD's though. But that would be an unfair comparison - a low powered tube monobloc against my S/S monster... Hmmmm []

[ben.]

Lets look at this another way. I go to someone's house to listen to their system - say an ACA meeting. We listen to the system and there is something wrong - the system is tonally off - something is amiss. We play a number of records (say) and they all come across this way. I would immediately suspect the cartridge alignment tracking as the culprit - or something else with the TT. We test the CD player - same problem - I would, in order, suspect:

The speakers.

The preamp.

The system's power supply.

The amp.

The wiring.

In other words - taking the TT to be 3 or 4 first choice things to check the amp comes in 8th or 9th. Even then I would suspect some kind of impedance mismatch or fault with the amp and so on before accepting that this was simply a tonally deficient amp.

Well, to me that says more about what tends to need troubleshooting more often than about what can sound preferable in an amp. (I'd check the wiring first, but there's many paths to enlightenment, so I'm told.) Sure, at a certain level one doesn't bump in into plainly deficient amplifers all that often. Folks just don't end to use them! There are appreciable differences to be heard and choices to make, though. I like Vidalias and barbeque anything on my pizza. Some freak of nature out there likes mayo on his. Lots of it. It's unreal.

[Audio Flynn]

Honestly Mark who started all this???? I don't see where my single

one sentence post deserves such a hostile response. You've changed

drastically and as a long time friend I'm telling you I see it.

==========================

I think you had a much wiser idea when you said you were simply not

going to post about this any longer. I'd give that strategy some more

thought. Now you are filling in with reams of nonsense here. Again, I'm

not going to go there point by point just to roll in mud with you. As

for "friends", yes, I have a few, some of them for 35 years even. So

trust me on this point - none has ever made such obscene personal

comments about me in public as you have over the past couple days. So,

please, take a hint, OK?

The posting about loudness and potential hearing loss of people is a

subject that has been discussed here many times, by many other people.

It's a scientific and medical fact that loud music can hurt your

hearing. I know, it has hurt mine. My assertion that many here listen

at those levels is my opinion. I didn't say you were deaf. Nor Dean or

anyone else. I know exactly what I said and in what context. I stand by

that opinion. It's there for anyone to read. I said the levels many

people listen at would be painful for a lot of people, and again that's

my opinion. Again, that's no reflection on you personally. It's my

opinion. That was a discussion - you can certainly hop in and disagree

as strongly as you wanted to WITHOUT resorting to personal diatribes

about my drugs, or my attempt at ginning up business and all the other

personal nonsense you've now decided to drag around here. Paul Parrot

made many posts rebutting mine, point for point, and not once did he

resort to attacks on my person - NOT ONCE. Not once was he rude,

obnoxious or boorish. He just made his best arguments. And I know how

passionately he believes his argument, yet he felt no need to mock me,

or post obscene comments about me.

I am not a kid. I think I understand what friendship is about. I

think I have a sensible adult expectation of the meaning of the word.

And this doesn't fit. So, really, my best advice is to not continue

your ad hominem attacks her. I find it really offensive and distasteful.

And oh by the way, I can change any opinion I hold today

tomorrow and what exact business is that of yours? If yesterday I liked

sports cars and today I like station wagons, that allows you to pummel

me?

md

You're doing just as much of the pummel treatment as anyone

here old buddy. AND YOU STARTED IT WHETHER YOU WILL ADMIT IT OR NOT.

Have you ever listened to music with me? Do you have some microphone setup in my listening room that allows you to profess that I listen at painful and dangerous levels?

You have no clue as to such an assumption or the right to

suggest something of that nature about me or anyone else. Yes this very

same thing has been mentioned on this forum before and if directed at

me resulted in the same type of response. Your just as guilty as I am

in this and if you were any kind of a reasonable man in your

current state of mind you would admit it. Statements like that

would never be stated by a true freind either especially considering

the business we are both in. I suspect it was stated for all

the wrong reasons which is the worst part about it.

Craig

Someone may listen to more music with Craig than

I. I really do pay that close attention to it. 95% of the time or more

we can talk over the music when we get together. We talk about

"overdriving" a room to smearing or collapsing of the soundstage when

the listening level is too high.

Last time we listened together Craig made the comment I did not play enough vocal music.

I

infer if any one would construe Granpa Craig as a "head banger"; he

would take serious issue with it, regardless of who it was. The

"painful and dangerous" comment cleary was an attack on Craig's "ear"

and judgement.

An uncalled for comment.