Head to Head RT-12D v. 2-(KW-120-THX & KA1000-THX)

[TheEAR]

DIY does not guarantee equal sound quality and much less a better one.Even with proven designs,plus unless you are skilled in cabinetry the product will look like an amateurish one.Giving the job of building the cabinet to others is no longer DO IT YOURSELF. []

Does that mean you gotta build the drivers by hand too? How bout the amplifiers [^o)][]

Do It Yourself as it says...you buy parts and make the sub yourself. As many people use made plans or WinISD to help them,remove WinISD ...I will from this day forth call them ASSEMBLE IT YOURSELFers! Or for short A I Y

Those who do not even build their own cabinets will be called Peeps Who Cannot Even Assemble PWCEA's And down the barrel you have the sonotube users who proudly display construction cement pouring tubes closed at both ends.

These peeps will be known as LAZY Assemble It Yourselfers or for the common folk... LAIY's

[]

Soooo, I guess the guy that buys one, "off the shelf" is even lazier than LAIY's. Therefore your earlier rant about the JL sub puts you in "what catagory".

Nope...

I value my time and buy a top of the line(sound quality) subwoofers that will outperform the home brew subs. And I do not claim to be a "Do It Yourselfer" sub builder,never made this claim. I let pros with years of experience and proven records do the work. []

Now back on track,the train starts to derail a bit here.

[DrWho]

The pros with years of experience and proven records are all building their own subs for home because the market doesn't support the size cabinets required for clean articulate low frequency reproduction. Considering the huge influences of the room on a subwoofer's performance, it only makes sense to customize it to work in tandem with the room. There is certainly more involved than pulling a magic black box with the loudest, deepest, lowest distortion output right off the shelf.

[Jay481985]

Jay,

And again you argue over thin air!!! I said to give the JL Audio f113 a LISTEN,to hear what is possible in subwoofers in terms of quality,what are you afraid of ? That the person really likes the JL and may buy it ! I will not allow fanboys of any given company to HIDE the facts if better sounding options are on the market,pointing to audition them.There is NO(NONE,ZERO...NADA) OBLIGATION of any kind.

The ignorance is bliss badge does apply to all you know.

I am a fan of many Klipsch products but not a die hard blind fanboy,the JL line of subs bests anything Klipsch ever made (subwoofer wise).I have way too many products(subs)from too many brands to be a one or two brand trupet blower. The JL is the current benchmark,why not hear it? FEAR? LOL

ha.... anyways you shout the jl in ever post even in posts dealing with sub 500 dollar costs..... this was a rt12d and kw120 competition. Its like some auto forums i sometimes visits. Its like which is better a honda accord or toyota camary and the BMW fan boys go they both suck get the BMW cause it ownz............ see any correlation?

[Jay481985]

Dr Who,

No, I'm not giving up on the 16 driver IB, but rather I'm disgusted with the Academy. I've tried and like hooking up the SW10II as a second center channel to help the Academy, but that means that I need another sub, Mama won't let me put the homade one back in the house. My thoughts here is to see about another sub that could be almost hidden in the house now, due do room constraints, and could also be used later in our new home in the family room, where I must surely use in wall speakers as this is Mamma's domain.

The RT-12d seems very appealing to me for that reason alone, and after reviewing the basic stats, seems very impressive to me, the only other option (or so I thought), was a Sunfire sub Jr. to do this job. I just can't wrap my mind around that tiny sub really being able to do the job like they claim.

It's very interesting about how several responses all seem to identify Chuffing from the THX system, not desirable IMHO. Shame on Klipsch, with there previous porting technology it seems to me that fixing that problem would be a no-brainer. Although I was looking for opinions on the corner loading of the RT-12d, as I'm familiar with the old Forte's and how they load up a corner.

by doubling the port size to reduce chuffling you need to also double the length of the port (its not exactly but close enough) and the port is already crammed in there and is twisted (not optimal as straight is best) but then again its a small enclosure that has to be front mounted to be wall mounted.

Trooper,

Thank you, I was hoping that someone had heard the two in the same situation you have, I'm not suprised by your findings, even though it's half the price of the THX setup.

I was able to see a RT12D the other day, but it wasn't turned on and getting help at the store I was at was a Joke. Also, they did not sell the THX line, or have Heritage line in stock, so no comparison's there.

[DrWho]

For what it's worth, I see nothing wrong with recommending someone listen to something that sounds better. In discussions of sound quality, price is an irrelevant factor until the buying process begins. One of the most interesting things I find about this hobby is that it's nearly impossible to quantify good sound, but it's extremely easy to quantify bad sound. Because of this, it's easy to predict what a lesser system will sound like, but it's nearly impossible to imagine what better is going to sound like. The only way to know what better sounds like is to hear it for yourself...

Man, them's a lot of words for way over analyzing an issue...but I think it bears merit to be stated.

[TheEAR]

For what it's worth, I see nothing wrong with recommending someone listen to something that sounds better. In discussions of sound quality, price is an irrelevant factor until the buying process begins. One of the most interesting things I find about this hobby is that it's nearly impossible to quantify good sound, but it's extremely easy to quantify bad sound. Because of this, it's easy to predict what a lesser system will sound like, but it's nearly impossible to imagine what better is going to sound like. The only way to know what better sounds like is to hear it for yourself...

Man, them's a lot of words for way over analyzing an issue...but I think it bears merit to be stated.

Amen to the above. Like I said why not listen to to top dog under 5K just ...to hear how far compact(to some and large to others) subs have gone.

[TheEAR]

The pros with years of experience and proven records are all building their own subs for home because the market doesn't support the size cabinets required for clean articulate low frequency reproduction. Considering the huge influences of the room on a subwoofer's performance, it only makes sense to customize it to work in tandem with the room. There is certainly more involved than pulling a magic black box with the loudest, deepest, lowest distortion output right off the shelf.

Now you have not heard the Fathom f113,it is very obvious. If you had you would not say true deep articulate bass is not a reality in a box not the size of a fridge. Use the very best in drivers,amps and design and you have pushed the limits,do not mistake this sub for a Sunfire.The Sunfire (even the Signature!)is a joke compared to the f113.

[TheEAR]

ha.... anyways you shout the jl in ever post even in posts dealing with sub 500 dollar costs..... this was a rt12d and kw120 competition. Its like some auto forums i sometimes visits. Its like which is better a honda accord or toyota camary and the BMW fan boys go they both suck get the BMW cause it ownz............ see any correlation?

Always shout,what are YOU afraid of? That people will have a point of reference and known what to aim for! This is not a $500 sun thread the RT-12d and the twin THX subs/amp are mid-upper scale subs,right near or in the f113 ballpark.

And yes the BMW M3,M5 and M6 are best of class (or at least very very close) performance cars. Think of the f113 as the M5 of subs. The RT-12d is a Cadillac STS []

[DrWho]

The pros with years of experience and proven records are all building their own subs for home because the market doesn't support the size cabinets required for clean articulate low frequency reproduction. Considering the huge influences of the room on a subwoofer's performance, it only makes sense to customize it to work in tandem with the room. There is certainly more involved than pulling a magic black box with the loudest, deepest, lowest distortion output right off the shelf.

Now you have not heard the Fathom f113,it is very obvious. If you had you would not say true deep articulate bass is not a reality in a box not the size of a fridge. Use the very best in drivers,amps and design and you have pushed the limits,do not mistake this sub for a Sunfire.The Sunfire (even the Signature!)is a joke compared to the f113.

Correct, never heard it - but you can't break the laws of physics either [] I'm by no means saying it's a poor performer, but for the same dollar an engineer could have far exceeded the performance in a bigger package. Every little reduction in size is a compromise. I suppose that goes to show just how overbuilt the driver is.

[Coytee]

Sooooooooooooo, does anyone here want to buy some Jubilees and forget all together, about subs?

[][:#]

[DrWho]

Jubilees don't go low enough [] (speaking of which, I still owe you that CD...got no excuses now that I'm on a month long break) [ip]

[colterphoto1]

Get the best and be done with it already.

I have the THX sub system with my LS fronts and CW rears. Yeah, it totally ROCKS. I've never heard a more MUSICAL sub. Some may be louder, but none more musical. None.

I watch a lot of concert DVD's. No one note wonder here. Blowing stuff up in movies is not the test of a sub- it's easy to shake the house with sound effects.

When Chris Squire from Yes steps on those Moog Taurus bass pedals, I want to hear each note separate and distinct from the preceding one. With true tonality and quick transients. The THX accomplishes this for me.

When I sit back in my recliner and my hair blows in the breeze, I smile quietly to myself.

I'm done shopping for subs.

Audio Nirvana Baby!

[colterphoto1]

Tell em what you think of my system Doc.

And btw, yes I bought them before going to work for Klipsch, no discount here. I knew there the ones for me when I hear them at Indy's HT setup!

[TheEAR]

Sooooooooooooo, does anyone here want to buy some Jubilees and forget all together, about subs?

[][:#]

The bass bin housing the Jub woofer is worthless dow very deep. The f113 has major output at 16hz,how capable is the Jubilee bass bin this low? []

[TheEAR]

Get the best and be done with it already.

I have the THX sub system with my LS fronts and CW rears. Yeah, it totally ROCKS. I've never heard a more MUSICAL sub. Some may be louder, but none more musical. None.

I watch a lot of concert DVD's. No one note wonder here. Blowing stuff up in movies is not the test of a sub- it's easy to shake the house with sound effects.

When Chris Squire from Yes steps on those Moog Taurus bass pedals, I want to hear each note separate and distinct from the preceding one. With true tonality and quick transients. The THX accomplishes this for me.

When I sit back in my recliner and my hair blows in the breeze, I smile quietly to myself.

I'm done shopping for subs.

Audio Nirvana Baby!

The best,the best Klipsch has produced,not THE best all around.

And what subs have you heard? I have 30 subs and have auditioned at home over 50 more. The JL Audio f113 is the single best subwoofer under $5000,and its retail is $3300(gloss black). It outperforms the best SVS,HSU have to offer. It outperforms anything Klipsch(I have the whole RSW series and the RT series),I have heard the THX subs ...I almost took a whole day experimenting with these(I will buy a set when my dealer will get them for me,not now now...GOTHAM time). I have Paradigm's Servo 15 V2,the Seismic series,...too many to list. The HGS18 from Velodyne...a legend in sound quality.

The f113 is the finest quality(sound quality) sub on the market right now.Followed by the Velo HGS18/DD18 and then in third place the SVS Ultra/2 and forth the Klipsch THX subs and Aerial SW12,Revel B15 in fifth.

This is my unbiased view of the sub pecking order and a few who have as much first first hand/ear experience as me will confirm.Craigsub on AVS also ranked the Fathom f113 first,followed by the DD18....[] No surprise to me

Where the f113 shines is with music,where bass texture and definition is most important. Bading badong ...patapouf explosions in movies are no test of quality. Any can shaker can impress the clowns there.

This said the twin THX subs and the matching amp are very capable and defined subs.

[theplummer]

Get the best and be done with it already.

I have the THX sub system with my LS fronts and CW rears. Yeah, it totally ROCKS. I've never heard a more MUSICAL sub. Some may be louder, but none more musical. None.

I watch a lot of concert DVD's. No one note wonder here. Blowing stuff up in movies is not the test of a sub- it's easy to shake the house with sound effects.

When Chris Squire from Yes steps on those Moog Taurus bass pedals, I want to hear each note separate and distinct from the preceding one. With true tonality and quick transients. The THX accomplishes this for me.

When I sit back in my recliner and my hair blows in the breeze, I smile quietly to myself.

I'm done shopping for subs.

Audio Nirvana Baby!

The best,the best Klipsch has produced,not THE best all around.

And what subs have you heard? I have 30 subs and have auditioned at home over 50 more. The JL Audio f113 is the single best subwoofer under $5000,and its retail is $3300(gloss black). It outperforms the best SVS,HSU have to offer. It outperforms anything Klipsch(I have the whole RSW series and the RT series),I have heard the THX subs ...I almost took a whole day experimenting with these(I will buy a set when my dealer will get them for me,not now now...GOTHAM time). I have Paradigm's Servo 15 V2,the Seismic series,...too many to list. The HGS18 from Velodyne...a legend in sound quality.

The f113 is the finest quality(sound quality) sub on the market right now.Followed by the Velo HGS18/DD18 and then in third place the SVS Ultra/2 and forth the Klipsch THX subs and Aerial SW12,Revel B15 in fifth.

This is my unbiased view of the sub pecking order and a few who have as much first first hand/ear experience as me will confirm.Craigsub on AVS also ranked the Fathom f113 first,followed by the DD18....[] No surprise to me

Where the f113 shines is with music,where bass texture and definition is most important. Bading badong ...patapouf explosions in movies are no test of quality. Any can shaker can impress the clowns there.

This said the twin THX subs and the matching amp are very capable and defined subs.

Edited

[TheEAR]

ThePlumber,

You are one weak little man to resort to childish insults,buy what ever you want. In your case IGNORANCE IS BLISS.

[Zen Traveler]

...I value my time and buy a top of the line(sound quality) subwoofers that will outperform the home brew subs. And I do not claim to be a "Do It Yourselfer" sub builder,never made this claim. I let pros with years of experience and proven records do the work. []

Now back on track,the train starts to derail a bit here.

I don't mean to hijack this thread but when I read this I thought of my situation because I feel the same way. I am NOT a "diy-er" and I had to send in my Amp and Pre-amp out of my RSW-15 to Klipsch and I don't know if I am going to be able to get that badboy back together when they send it back! []

I was told all I had to do was take off the back plate and disconnect a couple of cables. What I found was that I also had to take off Both woofers and disconnect ALOT of things that I can't imagine (me) putting back together either correctly or as solidly as it originally was.[^o)]

I hope I am wrong because I miss my RSW-15 and my sublime Home Theater Experience is not the same...

[CECAA850]

tdkamerica, where in TX do you live?

[Zen Traveler]

tdkamerica, where in TX do you live?

I live outside of Denton on Lake Lewisville.