redwood forest Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 I just replaced the Khorn tweeter driver with a JBL 2404H and I noticed a HUGE improvement. I'm wondering why Klipsch doesn't have these as standard tweeter drivers in their Khorns, but that's another thread. Right now I'm more interested in finding out what JBL squawker driver I could use to be a match with the new JBL tweeter. It appears that the JBL drivers are superior to the ones used in the Khorns. Sorry Klipsch, but those are the facts as I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Redwood, I am all for experimenting with audio. However, let me point out the obvious: you are doing some major surgery when you swap out drivers and tweeters. I would strongly suggest a planned approach since these swaps will undoubtedly produces changes in the efficiency of the output (big effect), the bandwidth of the components (big effect), the relative phase between the components (not a trivial effect), the relative dispersion from the various components (not a trivial effect). Very importantly, all these changes may require a different crossover. These small swaps can add up to some big consequences. Having made that disclaimer (and it really should be thought about), most folks typically worry about squawker horn and then worry about the squawker driver. The choice of horn will probably (I said probably) make a larger difference (I said difference not necessarily an improvement) rather than the driver. I would not limit yourself to just JBL products. When you are doing this, it may be quite possible that the crossover will need to be re-designed also in order to see any improvements. Good Luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 ..."most folks typically worry about squawker horn and then worry about the squawker driver. The choice of horn will probably (I said probably) make a larger difference (I said difference not necessarily an improvement) rather than the driver. I would not limit yourself to just JBL products." I know that Martinelli and AlK have wooden horns used with Khorns. Al's cost about $500 a pair, whereas the Matinelli horn costs more than $1000 a piece. Would you recommend either of these as a squawker replacement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 ..."most folks typically worry about squawker horn and then worry about the squawker driver. The choice of horn will probably (I said probably) make a larger difference (I said difference not necessarily an improvement) rather than the driver. I would not limit yourself to just JBL products." I know that Martinelli and AlK have wooden horns used with Khorns. Al's cost about $500 a pair, whereas the Matinelli horn costs more than $1000 a piece. Would you recommend either of these as a squawker replacement? Most definately. Al's horns are "bolt on" replacements and really open up the K-55. I made my own tractrix squaker horns, like the first ones Al built for himself, running K-55s and mate them up with ALK Type A replacement crossovers and JBL 2404h tweeters. The sound is so nice, I don't feel the need to "upgrade" any further. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Those are expensive options. Other options could include a tractrix horn from Klipsch, or an altec 511b horn (about $50-100 a piece on e-bay). Again if you change the driver (perhaps an Altec 902 to mate with te 511b) then a crossover change is required. The sensitivities are different so you would need to change taps on the autoformer (many threads discuss this). Also the K55 has a high freq roll off while the 902 does not, so the crossover output to the squawker would need to be band-passed (it is currectly high-passed). One thing leads to another.... -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EL34 Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 You should have had a plan for upgrading based on the driver specs. I guess you just "got lucky" and aquired a set of drivers that work and now you need to find mates. JBL does make some of the best horn drivers available. If you like those, you will love the TADs. Check these out: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/album/compare/0,,2076_310070071,00.html I have never really been a fan of horn loudspeakers of any type. I do like the cream of the crop in the Tannoy and the TAD systems but don't really have any need or room for them. They are simply too big and too loud for my space. I have a customer who really likes the larger than life dynamics and has built a humongous, custom TAD system driven by an equally humongous stack of Bryston x-overs and mono amplifiers. It is ridiculously powerful and loud, but that's what he wanted. Personally, I prefer the Tannoy Dual Concentric designs for their near perfect phase and full frequency response. Either system is way more expensive than the Klipsch system, so the K-horn certainly has it's place in the price to performance ratio if you figure in loud and large at the top of the list. They certainly have a lot of fans around here and deservedly so. You will likely want to remove the x-over and use an active, adjustable filter such as those by Bryston or Marchand to get the thing to come back together properly. Set up a couple of lawn chairs out about 20 yds from the back porch and enjoy it before the cops show up ;-). I assume that you have it but you need a really big room for those to gel with any sort of drivers as they are so large and also require hard corners to get the low frequencies at the same level. I have seen photos of some small rooms with huge speakers in them that you would not believe. If I can find the one that I am thinking about, I'll share it. It hurts my ears just to think about it ;- ). Funnier still, I have a scale model of Tannoy horn loaded loudspeakers here that are really cute. They are a beautifully finished pair of working speakers that use 4" Dual concentric drivers and are only about the size of a shoebox. The real speakers were a vintage set that had a 15" Dual Concentric driver and so would have been just larger than the Cornwalls! -Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 I have the JBL 2404h tweeter. I have Al's Type A replacement crossover. Now all that I need is Al's Trackhorn and I'll be all set. Would Al's Extreme Slope crossover be better or is that pushing it? Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 I have the JBL 2404h tweeter. I have Al's Type A replacement crossover. Now all that I need is Al's Trackhorn and I'll be all set. Would Al's Extreme Slope crossover be better or is that pushing it? Les That is exactly where I was heading. Had my Khorns, had Al's ES networks and had my 2404's (which were the SINGLE most noticable difference in sound of everything) I was then going to get his Trachorns but ended up sellling the Khorns and going to the 2-way Jubilee (which comes together in sound MUCH quicker than the Khorn and doesn't need the huge room to come together as a sound wave) On top of that... it don't sound half bad! [<)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Except the early eighties solder lug and K-55M, the other K-55s drop off starting around 4500Hz so a bit of overlap from the tweeter is a good thing to have. Al's extreme slope slams the door at 5800Hz between the drivers. I just don't know. Talk to Al. If you stay with the ALK As, ask him about a tweeter autoformer to better match the JBL to the Klipsch efficiency. The attenuator is part of the extreme slope network. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Rough mock up of where I'm headed... (Art diclaimer - it's a family piece and it's only hanging there so it won't get damaged as I move stuff around.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 10, 2007 Author Share Posted January 10, 2007 Except the early eighties solder lug and K-55M, the other K-55s drop off starting around 4500Hz so a bit of overlap from the tweeter is a good thing to have. Al's extreme slope slams the door at 5800Hz between the drivers. I just don't know. Talk to Al. If you stay with the ALK As, ask him about a tweeter autoformer to better match the JBL to the Klipsch efficiency. The attenuator is part of the extreme slope network. Rick I don't know either. I'll wait for the vedict before I get the extreme slope crossover. I'm using an L pad to control the level of the JBL 2404 tweeter to match it with everything else. It seems to work OK. Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3dzapper Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 Ben, Sorry, you are only the runner-up in the ugly department. Duke has you beat with his Oprah butts. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 I have the JBL 2404h tweeter. I have Al's Type A replacement crossover. Now all that I need is Al's Trackhorn and I'll be all set. Would Al's Extreme Slope crossover be better or is that pushing it? Les Les, congrats on the JBL 2404h tweeter. Your choice of driver may have been unintentional, and if so, you did very well. The most popular and tried and true tweeter upgrades for Heritage owners have been the JBL 2404h, Beyma CP25, and Bob Crites CT125 (which uses an Eminence APT 50 driver). The JBL 2404h is a fine tweeter and will serve you well. A search in the upgrades and mods section would reveal some of the various discussions about tweeter upgrades, choice of drivers, experiences and testing. Nothing lucky about your choice. I run Al's Trachorns (with stock K55s) with Al's Type A replacement crossover and an upgraded tweeter. I echo what other have said about the Trachorns making a difference over the stock K400 squawker horns, and I am very satisfied with the result. I also agree that upgrading the horn may yield a larger benefit than upgrading the driver in that even with an upgraded squawker driver, you still have some of the constraints of the K400 design. If it were me, I'd go for the Trachorns before a driver upgrade or for Extreme Slope crossovers. Rick also makes a reference to Al's tweeter attentuators. While you have adjustable taps on your crossover that allow you to adjust your squawker level, if you ever find that your JBL tweeters are too hot or you may just want to reduce their db levels some, Al's tweeter attentuators are a great add-on to allow you to further customize the sound (about $80 a pair). My personal taste is to run my tweeters greatly attenuated compared to my squawker and bass bin. But again, its all personal taste and preference. Of course, as Rick also pointed out, tweeter attentuation comes standard with extreme slopes should you decide to go that route first. Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Ben, Sorry, you are only the runner-up in the ugly department. Duke has you beat with his Oprah butts. Rick Heh... I was actually going to go with those 2360 as there is a pair here in Buffalo that I think I could've gotten pretty cheaply. I decided against it as I don't want to be tied to the EQ requirements of CD horns whether triamping or using a passive network. My sweet spot only needs to be about as big as your anechoic chamber, so I sure don't need the big pattern of the 2360. That Altec is only 40x20 by the book. The 2" exit of the JBL was attractive, but I received some advice from a very experienced guy that swayed me to the little Altecs. The drivers are a bear to source lately, though... I actually think Duke's are pretty nice with the paint job and all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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