ICE BUILD-UP QUESTION FOR YOU YANKEE

[el jopez]

GIlbert, I'm in OKC waiting for wave 2 to roll in, luckily its just snow... for now.

Damn Okies cant drive in this weather [:S]

[Gilbert]

GIlbert, I'm in OKC waiting for wave 2 to roll in, luckily its just snow... for now.

Damn Okies cant drive in this weather [:S]

Man! Your just a stones throw away, just under 100miles due west, cool. We will have to hookup.

You're right about the Okie driving in this stuff, but I'm not too much better, if even that. I just take it easy on the roads and try not to rush things. This morning there was quite a bit of black ice on the entrance and exit ramps. I felt the big truck slide on several occassion, even in 4WD, and about 700lbs of dead weight in the back.

I'm from south texas, and this stuff has me feeling weary on my early morning commute to work. Left the house at 6:00am this morning, and didn't get here till about 6:40ish. What's normally a 20min. drive is now double that. Today was the first day I was able to drive all the way to downtown without traveling over a major ice buildup. The City was able to get a bunch of motorgraders (big heavyduty tractors) and bite through the thick ice. They got it thinned out enough so that the snow trucks could finish the job. That 40deg temp. we had yesterday help out quite a bit too. But now, hear we go again. Starting late tonight, and then the heavy stuff starts falling Saturday. It's gonna be hard for me to resist comming in, but I need to spend time with my girlies.

I miss this weather......

[PhilMays]

Check out this

http://www.king5.com/sharedcontent/V...andhomevid.wmv

Thats pretty wild jb. You do see some frightening things when driving in the wintertime.

That was very embarrasing to me. I fell asleep in the back of the pickup truck during a snow storm....No more scotch for me[:$]

[Jay481985]

GIlbert, I'm in OKC waiting for wave 2 to roll in, luckily its just snow... for now.

Damn Okies cant drive in this weather [:S]

Man! Your just a stones throw away, just under 100miles due west, cool. We will have to hookup.

You're right about the Okie driving in this stuff, but I'm not too much better, if even that. I just take it easy on the roads and try not to rush things. This morning there was quite a bit of black ice on the entrance and exit ramps. I felt the big truck slide on several occassion, even in 4WD, and about 700lbs of dead weight in the back.

I'm from south texas, and this stuff has me feeling weary on my early morning commute to work. Left the house at 6:00am this morning, and didn't get here till about 6:40ish. What's normally a 20min. drive is now double that. Today was the first day I was able to drive all the way to downtown without traveling over a major ice buildup. The City was able to get a bunch of motorgraders (big heavyduty tractors) and bite through the thick ice. They got it thinned out enough so that the snow trucks could finish the job. That 40deg temp. we had yesterday help out quite a bit too. But now, hear we go again. Starting late tonight, and then the heavy stuff starts falling Saturday. It's gonna be hard for me to resist comming in, but I need to spend time with my girlies.

I miss this weather......

if you have constant steady 20 degree weather the ice is not really slick anymore. In Canada I heard that once its been cold enough the trucks can drive over the ice which is not slicker than regular road. Ice is slick when there is a thin layer of water or its warm enough to do that

[customsteve01]

Gilbert,

If you want a product that will not hurt the concrete, not kill the grass and still melt the ice go to the hardware store and buy some "Urea". It is a Nitrogen based fertilizer. If you buy very much be prepaired to give them your drivers license info and other stuff because this is the stuff if mixed with Diesal is used to make crude bombs. It is widely used on airports to melt ice because it is not corrosive to the aluminum that airplanes are made of and does not damage the concrete. It is also about the same as Potassium Chloride.

Here is a link http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/

Here is the MSDS http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/msds-sheet-urea/

Steve

[JJkizak]

If you want to drive safely on ice and hardpac snow you need all wheel drive with 4 studded snow tires, new, not used. After two seasons (5000 miles) the tire rubber is too hard and won't grip very well. And then if you are on glare ice you can only drive about 15-20 mph if there are long stretches. If there are short stretches you can drive normally over them without a problem on a straight sections but curves you must slow down without breaking and turning too quickly. Your vehicle must be perfectly balanced or you are out of luck. My 1979 Corvette was set up this way and it was heaven to drive in Northeast Ohio winters. The tracking on hardpack fully snow-covered roads was fantastic. Listening to those studds crackle the ice was music to my ears. I could floor the car at 50 mph on hard pack snow, the car rear end would veer to the left, I could then let off the gas and the car would automatically straighten out. I had to install the studded tires on the front for stability and breaking as 90% of you breaking power is routed to the front wheels. (didn't have anti-lock breaking) The only drawback was that the Corvette frame rusted out after 8 years of salt. Broke in half at the rear wheels and the fibreglass was holding the car together. All the brake lines and fuel lines were rusted and the brake calipers were shot. The side exhaust headers were rusted through as the mufflers. The inner sheetmetal frame was rusted out at the top of the windshield. But I fixed it all and all was well. Then I bought a 1993 Grand Cheroke for my dasterdly deeds and still use that vehicle. Then retired. Now I laugh at all those people having to drive to work through snow and ice while typing little ditty's on the Klipsch forum.

JJK

[Gilbert]

Gilbert,

If you want a product that will not hurt the concrete, not kill the grass and still melt the ice go to the hardware store and buy some "Urea". It is a Nitrogen based fertilizer. If you buy very much be prepaired to give them your drivers license info and other stuff because this is the stuff if mixed with Diesal is used to make crude bombs. It is widely used on airports to melt ice because it is not corrosive to the aluminum that airplanes are made of and does not damage the concrete. It is also about the same as Potassium Chloride.

Here is a link http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/

Here is the MSDS http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/msds-sheet-urea/

Steve

Just what the doctor ordered. The ice here is mostly melted away (at last), but I will store this information in my memory banks. The wife typically uses Peter's brand fertilizers for her gardening. They make good stuff.

[customsteve01]

Get yourself one of these too. Makes it real easy to do your driveway fast.

http://www.rittenhouse.ca/asp/product.asp?pf=1&PG=55

Steve

[Jay481985]

Gilbert,

If you want a product that will not hurt the concrete, not kill the grass and still melt the ice go to the hardware store and buy some "Urea". It is a Nitrogen based fertilizer. If you buy very much be prepaired to give them your drivers license info and other stuff because this is the stuff if mixed with Diesal is used to make crude bombs. It is widely used on airports to melt ice because it is not corrosive to the aluminum that airplanes are made of and does not damage the concrete. It is also about the same as Potassium Chloride.

Here is a link http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/

Here is the MSDS http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/msds-sheet-urea/

Steve

??? Aluminum corrodes???

[flannj]

Gilbert,

If you want a product that will not hurt the concrete, not kill the grass and still melt the ice go to the hardware store and buy some "Urea". It is a Nitrogen based fertilizer. If you buy very much be prepaired to give them your drivers license info and other stuff because this is the stuff if mixed with Diesal is used to make crude bombs. It is widely used on airports to melt ice because it is not corrosive to the aluminum that airplanes are made of and does not damage the concrete. It is also about the same as Potassium Chloride.

Here is a link http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/

Here is the MSDS http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/msds-sheet-urea/

Steve

??? Aluminum corrodes???

Sure does. One of the most common examples would be in your hot water heater. From Wiki:

A sacrificial anode, or sacrificial rod, is a metallic anode used in a cathodic protection where it is intended to be dissolved to protect other metallic components.

In laymen's terms, it's a piece of readily corrodible metal attached (by either an electrically conductive solid or liquid) to the metal you wish to protect. This piece of metal corrodes first, and generally must dissolve nearly completely before the protected metal will corrode (hence the term "sacrificial").

More scientifically, a sacrificial anode can be defined as a metal that is more easily oxidized than the protected metal. Electrons are stripped from the anode and conducted to the protected metal, which, for this reason, is forced to become the cathode. As a result, the protected metal is prevented from corroding.

For example when zinc and iron are put together in the presence of oxygen, the zinc and oxygen will lose electrons at the same time. However, as iron is less reactive than zinc, it tends to absorb the electron zinc loss relatively. Therefore, iron is a neutral atom and zinc is a cation and reacts with oxygen, and the iron is "safe" until all of the zinc has corroded.

One example is the galvanic anode used in a cathodic protection system, where the intended purpose is to prevent corrosion of the protected metal (such as a ship's hull, an oil pipeline, or a hot-water heater's tank) by being more electronegative than the desired metal. Commonly used metals for such protective purposes are zinc, aluminum and magnesium.

Another example is the anode in an electroplating process, whereby the metal from the anode replaces the metal depleted from the plating solution as it is deposited on the cathode.

[Jay481985]

Gilbert,

If you want a product that will not hurt the concrete, not kill the grass and still melt the ice go to the hardware store and buy some "Urea". It is a Nitrogen based fertilizer. If you buy very much be prepaired to give them your drivers license info and other stuff because this is the stuff if mixed with Diesal is used to make crude bombs. It is widely used on airports to melt ice because it is not corrosive to the aluminum that airplanes are made of and does not damage the concrete. It is also about the same as Potassium Chloride.

Here is a link http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/

Here is the MSDS http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/msds-sheet-urea/

Steve

??? Aluminum corrodes???

Sure does. One of the most common examples would be in your hot water heater. From Wiki:

A sacrificial anode, or sacrificial rod, is a metallic anode used in a cathodic protection where it is intended to be dissolved to protect other metallic components.

In laymen's terms, it's a piece of readily corrodible metal attached (by either an electrically conductive solid or liquid) to the metal you wish to protect. This piece of metal corrodes first, and generally must dissolve nearly completely before the protected metal will corrode (hence the term "sacrificial").

More scientifically, a sacrificial anode can be defined as a metal that is more easily oxidized than the protected metal. Electrons are stripped from the anode and conducted to the protected metal, which, for this reason, is forced to become the cathode. As a result, the protected metal is prevented from corroding.

For example when zinc and iron are put together in the presence of oxygen, the zinc and oxygen will lose electrons at the same time. However, as iron is less reactive than zinc, it tends to absorb the electron zinc loss relatively. Therefore, iron is a neutral atom and zinc is a cation and reacts with oxygen, and the iron is "safe" until all of the zinc has corroded.

One example is the galvanic anode used in a cathodic protection system, where the intended purpose is to prevent corrosion of the protected metal (such as a ship's hull, an oil pipeline, or a hot-water heater's tank) by being more electronegative than the desired metal. Commonly used metals for such protective purposes are zinc, aluminum and magnesium.

Another example is the anode in an electroplating process, whereby the metal from the anode replaces the metal depleted from the plating solution as it is deposited on the cathode.

note that was for protecting purposes not the fact that aluminum corrodes..... Alumnium zinc, and magnesium are uses as they are relatively stable metals that do not rust. Well aluminum is a bit different. It does oxidize but at a rate that is way to quick to see and the oxidization is actually stronger than the aluminum itself. When aluminum is scratched it forms aluminum oxide, Al2O3 which is the reason why aluminum does not corrode quicker and has excelent heat and electrical properties. Also aluminum oxide aka corundum is what rubies and sapphires are made of. Also it is what the white crucibals are made of. In essense aluminum does not corrode in regular usesage hence why they use it so much in harsh conditions.

There is one chemical that will corrode aluminum that is banned in airplanes also due to the nature. It is also the reason why you cannot bring barometers and thermometers inside the plane. Mercury

[flannj]

Jay,

You stated ???Aluminum corrodes???

I gave you an example that shows it does corrode. A common example. There are many others.

That the purpose of the corrosion is for protection is immaterial.

That it does not corrode "in regular usage" is irrelevant.

The fact is it can corrode.

- Jim

[customsteve01]

Flannj is correct to a point. salt is a really bad thing for Aluminium, read below.

However, other metals do not oxidise in this way. For example, you may think that aluminium does not corrode, as we see unprotected aluminium windows and equipment all around us - and it does not corrode away like iron and steel.
As we saw in experiment 2(1) - aluminium foil in water will not corrode, but when salt is in the water the aluminium foil corrodes rapidly. Why?

The answer lies in the way that Aluminium corrodes. Aluminium corrodes very quickly (actually much more quickly than Iron and Steel). However, the oxide that forms when aluminium atoms oxidise does not fall off like the rust on iron, but clings tightly to the surface of the aluminium. Very quickly, a hard layer of aluminium oxide covers the metal, and protects the aluminium metal beneath. No more aluminium can oxidise, as it has been sealed off from the oxygen and water needed to make the reaction happen.
When salt is added to the water, the powerful Cl- ions attack the aluminium oxide coating, tearing it from the surface and exposing new aluminium metal. As soon as this aluminium metal corrodes into aluminium oxide, it too is stripped from the surface by the Cl- ions. The natural protection that aluminium gets from its oxide coating is lost. This is the reason that aluminium cars and equipment will often corrode badly if they are used in or near the sea.

Steve

[flannj]

There are other factors as well that can cause the destruction of the layer of aluminum oxide.

"When unoxidized aluminum is immersed in pure water, it will form a white hydroxide film, which remains more or less constant in thickness once equilibrium is reached. The equilibrium thickness of the layer depends on temperature. The film is stable in natural water with a pH in the neutral range from 4.5 to 8.5. However, water with a lower pH (more acidic) may attack some aluminum alloys, and water with higher pH (more basic) will attack all aluminum alloys. Aluminum's resistance to corrosion in natural fresh and tap waters varies also depending on the content of dissolved solids, gases, and colloidal or suspended matter. For instance, the combination of carbonate, chloride and copper can cause some supply waters to be more corrosive." http://www.lytron.com/support/anti_corrosive.htm

Think of a car radiator or an industrial heat exchanger. Ethylene glycol (antifreeze) is used to prevent corrosion.

- Jim

[Gilbert]

Gilbert,

If you want a product that will not hurt the concrete, not kill the grass and still melt the ice go to the hardware store and buy some "Urea". It is a Nitrogen based fertilizer. If you buy very much be prepaired to give them your drivers license info and other stuff because this is the stuff if mixed with Diesal is used to make crude bombs. It is widely used on airports to melt ice because it is not corrosive to the aluminum that airplanes are made of and does not damage the concrete. It is also about the same as Potassium Chloride.

Here is a link http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/

Here is the MSDS http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/msds-sheet-urea/

Steve

??? Aluminum corrodes???

I guess your asking (?), if so, yes, absolutely. Aluminum is most definitely subject to corrosion. Why do you ask? Where did this come from?

[Jay481985]

There are other factors as well that can cause the destruction of the layer of aluminum oxide.

"When unoxidized aluminum is immersed in pure water, it will form a white hydroxide film, which remains more or less constant in thickness once equilibrium is reached. The equilibrium thickness of the layer depends on temperature. The film is stable in natural water with a pH in the neutral range from 4.5 to 8.5. However, water with a lower pH (more acidic) may attack some aluminum alloys, and water with higher pH (more basic) will attack all aluminum alloys. Aluminum's resistance to corrosion in natural fresh and tap waters varies also depending on the content of dissolved solids, gases, and colloidal or suspended matter. For instance, the combination of carbonate, chloride and copper can cause some supply waters to be more corrosive." http://www.lytron.com/support/anti_corrosive.htm

Think of a car radiator or an industrial heat exchanger. Ethylene glycol (antifreeze) is used to prevent corrosion.

- Jim

OK When unoxidized aluminum is immersed in pure water. Ok I would like to see where you would get unoxidized aluminum other than scientific laboratories, certain special companies, etc. Unless you produce the aluminum in oxygen less environment and contain it within an oxygen less area it will be unoxidized. Once it touches the normal environment then the aluminum will form the protective aluminum oxide. So you would go out and have to purify the bauxite ore (sp) in a nitrogen or argon environment from start to end, to get the aluminum or while in the melting process of aluminum you must draft the aluminum oxide out in a oxygen free environment which is expensive and cost prohibited.

note the reason why ethylene glycol is used to prevent corrosion inside the car is not the fact aluminum corrodes it is the fact that the radiator system is not made up of one metal. When there is a difference in metals like the radiator (there are lots of different things, electrolysis I believe takes place where the differences in metals do tend to corrode each other. If the radiator was made of just aluminum it would be fine

Also with natural water with ph of 4.5 to 8.5 wow that is not really normal water if it reads that far. If it was natural or regular water with no additives it would hit around 6.5-7.5 tops

Also note the alloys are highlighted. Remember alloys take the best and worst of two kinds of metals. When you alloy a metal with another metal you do have the weaknesses of the other metal. The other metal may cause the aluminum to corrode. Regular aluminum is very stable. BTW aluminum is not technically a metal []

[Jay481985]

Flannj is correct to a point. salt is a really bad thing for Aluminium, read below.

However, other metals do not oxidise in this way. For example, you may think that aluminium does not corrode, as we see unprotected aluminium windows and equipment all around us - and it does not corrode away like iron and steel.

As we saw in experiment 2(1) - aluminium foil in water will not corrode, but when salt is in the water the aluminium foil corrodes rapidly. Why?

The answer lies in the way that Aluminium corrodes. Aluminium corrodes very quickly (actually much more quickly than Iron and Steel). However, the oxide that forms when aluminium atoms oxidise does not fall off like the rust on iron, but clings tightly to the surface of the aluminium. Very quickly, a hard layer of aluminium oxide covers the metal, and protects the aluminium metal beneath. No more aluminium can oxidise, as it has been sealed off from the oxygen and water needed to make the reaction happen.

When salt is added to the water, the powerful Cl- ions attack the aluminium oxide coating, tearing it from the surface and exposing new aluminium metal. As soon as this aluminium metal corrodes into aluminium oxide, it too is stripped from the surface by the Cl- ions. The natural protection that aluminium gets from its oxide coating is lost. This is the reason that aluminium cars and equipment will often corrode badly if they are used in or near the sea.

Steve

Put some mercury on the aluminum and make a scratch and watch as the aluminum turns to dust. As I said before yes it oxidizes and if anyone read my statement above, yes it oxidizes but in a usable and stronger form. Also, just like rust on the overpass bridges are made to incorporate the oxidation. Did you know that engineers actually use the rust as a protection to the bridge. The engineers incorporate the rust to prevent more rust to form on bridges that may actually damage or weaken the bridge.

aluminum cars.... hmmm there are a whole 4 cars that are near all aluminum...... Let me think the jaguar xj8 and xk8, the audi a8, ferrari....... Also I would say that the aluminum car will fare alot better than any steel car. BTW salt does not corrode by itself, it needs something that will deionize it like water to make the corrosion happen. If you put salt ontop of your hood in a climate and humidity controlled area for 1000 years it would be just the same. When salt is placed in water the sodium, potassium, etc and chloride are deionized meaning that the two elements act as if they were not ionically bonded in which they are when they are in dry solid form.

[Jay481985]

Gilbert,

If you want a product that will not hurt the concrete, not kill the grass and still melt the ice go to the hardware store and buy some "Urea". It is a Nitrogen based fertilizer. If you buy very much be prepaired to give them your drivers license info and other stuff because this is the stuff if mixed with Diesal is used to make crude bombs. It is widely used on airports to melt ice because it is not corrosive to the aluminum that airplanes are made of and does not damage the concrete. It is also about the same as Potassium Chloride.

Here is a link http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/

Here is the MSDS http://www.peterschemical.com/urea/msds-sheet-urea/

Steve

??? Aluminum corrodes???

I guess your asking (?), if so, yes, absolutely. Aluminum is most definitely subject to corrosion. Why do you ask? Where did this come from?

corrodes from what? in most normal situations aluminum is fine and will not corrode

[Jay481985]

Jay,

You stated ???Aluminum corrodes???

I gave you an example that shows it does corrode. A common example. There are many others.

That the purpose of the corrosion is for protection is immaterial.

That it does not corrode "in regular usage" is irrelevant.

The fact is it can corrode.

- Jim

I think you don't like to hear things that go against your beliefs.

"That the purpose of the corrosion is for protection is immaterial."

I was stating that yes aluminum oxidizes and forms a protective barrier. It is truthful and fully material to understanding how aluminum does not corrode

"That it does not corrode "in regular usage" is irrelevant."

Sure it is. Its like trying use a different tool for something it was not designed for. Its like trying to set metal on fire to use as a fuel, yes some metals do go on fire and produce more energy than imputed but certainly you would not want to use metals as fuels. You need to understand relavence and how it works in everyday life.

[Jay481985]

Oh btw before I believe the bessmer process was invented that made aluminum cheap, aluminum was one of the most expensive metals. Napoleon used aluminum dinner plates for very special guests, while the normal guests got gold plates.