NOSValves Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 What I think you should do is install a stock Klipsch tweeter and get rid of the JBL/ Lpad combo.....please bare with me here because you will later reinstall the JBL if you like. Then adjust the mid horn taps until the speaker sound flat go to like -7db or 8db. Now stop and listen to this combo for a week it should sound somewhat flat. Now slowly raise the mid taps 1 db at a time until the balance seems the best it can get. Listen again for a week or more. Now if you feel like throwing the JBL back in the mix go for it. I played with so many crossovers and drivers it makes me sick. I have found that at least my ears get confused and addicted to over detail and I had to start from the flat sounding side of things and slowly work myself back to perfect balance with the newer crossovers, Trachorns, and tweeters. I must of cussed Al, Dean and BEC a thousand times but now I'm pretty much in hog heaven. Craig I just bought the JBL tweeters, because the Klipsch tweeters were too grainy and not smooth at all. The improvement from the JBL tweeter is overwhelming. I came to the same conclusion a few minutes ago about your procedure to lower the squawker level. I'll just do it more slowly now. What level did you end up with on the squawker, and what else did you do to end up in hog heaven?I have ordered Al's trachorns. As soon as they come in I can add that to the equation. What I ended up setting the mid horn level at with my upstream gear, in my room with my ALK Jr. Networks, ALK midhorns and BEC tweeters would really have no relationship to what your running. I ended up at -7.2db in my room here but at a show I do every year I ended up at -6.8db. This is all very much system and room dependant. At this point I would not consider going back to a none adjustable mid driver type network with all my after market horns/driver combination. What caps are used in your ALK networks? Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I agree with Ben. Remember, forest is running a Placette straight line attenuator - from his CD player to his Mark Levenson amp. Remember Golden Ear award (or was that Golden Foot, Craig?) As a result, we are talking about the uncolored sound of the CDP and the amp. I still take the position that active preamps have the most overall effect on the quality of sound (good or bad). Was there ever a time when Khorns or LaScalas did not sound "shrill" in your setup? (with other gear??) And give us some point of reference to other Khorn or LaScala setups that you have heard so we can help. Carl. P.S. Although as a Trachorn owner, that is also a step in the right direction!!! But, the JBL tweeters should not be "shrill" or "harsh" with ALKs - given my experience with those tweeters and those networks - if the rest of the system is in synergy I'm not saying the JBL tweeters are shrill but they could be over driving the rest of the setup and I have never been a big believer in L-pads if its has to cut the signal back by much it has to have en effect on clarity. We all no the last place you what something nasty in the signal path of the horn would be a HF response. I personally think the reason I think all Altec speakers sound the dung is the darn Lpad's in those funky networks. My main point is get back to basics. If the setup is Shrill with bone stock Klipsch and ALK networks its time to dump some upstream components. I've found it best to slowly lead a horse to water............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 O.K., I'll try again -- did Al build the networks? Dean can we get a third time[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 The first thing I want to ask is if Al actually built the networks. After we establish that, we can move on. Yes Dean, It's the AlK universal that I'm using along with the Klipsch AL-3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I'm guessing Dean and Craig were asking if Al himself built these or they were built by someone else to Al's specifications (or perhaps improperly built)... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I've seen ALKs that were built wrong, so I wanted to make sure that Al actually built them -- needed to rule that out. How far off the speakers are you, and do you listen 'loud'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 I agree with Ben. Remember, forest is running a Placette straight line attenuator - from his CD player to his Mark Levenson amp. Remember Golden Ear award (or was that Golden Foot, Craig?) As a result, we are talking about the uncolored sound of the CDP and the amp. I still take the position that active preamps have the most overall effect on the quality of sound (good or bad). Was there ever a time when Khorns or LaScalas did not sound "shrill" in your setup? (with other gear??) And give us some point of reference to other Khorn or LaScala setups that you have heard so we can help. Carl. P.S. Although as a Trachorn owner, that is also a step in the right direction!!! But, the JBL tweeters should not be "shrill" or "harsh" with ALKs - given my experience with those tweeters and those networks - if the rest of the system is in synergy The Placette Preamp is not the problem, although it may sound better with an active preamp. The JBL tweeters are not the problem either. I turned them off and the problem remained. The problem is with the squawker. It sounds muffled with AA and AL-3 crossovers and shrill with the AlKs. The conclusion from several responses back is that I'm going to try attenuating the squawker with Al's crossover. I've given up with the Klipsch crossovers all together since there is no way to unmuffle the squawker using the Klipsch crossovers. Les P.S.: You guys started the "golden foot" problem with your wise cracks. I'm willing to set it aside. Can't you do the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I was Al's licensed builder for the Cornwall ALK for over two years, have built and sold close to 70 sets of networks similar to the Universal Type A (ALK), and use the Trachorn/Beyma set up. Now, are you going to see this through with me or should I go find someone else to annoy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 I've seen ALKs that were built wrong, so I wanted to make sure that Al actually built them -- needed to rule that out. How far off the speakers are you, and do you listen 'loud'? These were built by Al. I trust his workmanship. The Khorns are in an equilateral triangle with and facing the sweet spot. The speakers are all 9 feet away from the sweetspot. I play the speakers at a volume that would be equal to a live orchestral concert about one third of the way back from the stage. To me it's not loud most of the time. Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 I was Al's licensed builder for the Cornwall ALK for over two years, have built and sold close to 70 sets of networks similiar to the Universal Type A (ALK), and use the Trachorn/Beyma set up. Now, are you going to see this through with me or should I go find someone else to annoy? Dean, I'm a slow typist and I've tried to answer everyone's questions. Have mercy, please! Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 O.K., sorry. My fuse is a bit shorter than usual anyways -- long night with the kids. Try to forget what you heard with the squawkers when you disconnected the tweeters. Since you didn't terminate the tweeter filter sections with resistors you're not hearing an accurate representation of what the squawker sections are doing. I also suspect you have your 2404's sitting on top of your Klipschorns, which means they aren't behind the grill, which tends to attenuate and diffuse the sound a bit. I presume you bought the new motorboards/grills from Al along with your Trachorn order, and that will remedy that. Now, I'm no fan of variable L-pads, and I strongly suspect they are contributing to the shrillness issue. Order a set of Al's attenuators and dump the L-pads. When you get everything together, set the jumpers on the networks to taps 4 and X (be sure to observe proper polarity as per the instructions in the manual that Al sent with the networks). When you install the attenuators, start with the -3dB setting. Now, the Universal Type A gives the speaker a somewhat accurate and analytical sonic signature, and it does take some getting used to. Also, did you buy the 2404's new or used? If they are new, you might want to consider that it takes a driver like that a couple of weeks to settle in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 18, 2007 Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 O.K., sorry. My fuse is a bit shorter than usual anyways -- long night with the kids. Try to forget what you heard with the squawkers when you disconnected the tweeters. Since you didn't terminate the tweeter filter sections with resistors you're not hearing an accurate representation of what the squawker sections are doing. I also suspect you have your 2404's sitting on top of your Klipschorns, which means they aren't behind the grill, which tends to attenuate and diffuse the sound a bit. I presume you bought the new motorboards/grills from Al along with your Trachorn order, and that will remedy that. Now, I'm no fan of variable L-pads, and I strongly suspect they are contributing to the shrillness issue. Order a set of Al's attenuators and dump the L-pads. When you get everything together, set the jumpers on the networks to taps 4 and X (be sure to observe proper polarity as per the instructions in the manual that Al sent with the networks). When you install the attenuators, start with the -3dB setting. Now, the Universal Type A gives the speaker a somewhat accurate and analytical sonic signature, and it does take some getting used to. Also, did you buy the 2404's new or used? If they are new, you might want to consider that it takes a driver like that a couple of weeks to settle in. I have the raw Khorns from thirty years ago. The whole cabinet is hidden behind giant framed grill cloth fronts. The JBL 2404s are beside the squawkers just as Al did, but there is no squawker/tweeter frame since the speakers are raw. They both are sitting on a ledge buffered with ASC vibration absorbant materal. I just bought the 2404s after I heard the nice things that Al said about them. I'm no fan of L pads either, but its better than listening to tweeters that are 50% louder than the other drivers. Al said that once I get the tweeter level set, I could replace them with fixed resistors. According to Al, the problem with L pads is that their levels drift. I'll take your advice on the settings. Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 I have the raw Khorns from thirty years ago. The whole cabinet is hidden behind giant framed grill cloth fronts. Les Redwood - I'd sure like to see a pic of that if possible. Sounds interesting. Also, may I ask how old those AA's are that sound muffled to you? I'm looking forward to hearing your Trachorn review. I have this same 'shrillness' issue and the more I listen to my other Klipsch vintage types, the more I think I just plain don't like that mid-horn. Dean - These V-Caps seem to be impressing people lately. Maybe we can talk about it sometime as I wonder if they might be better for my situation? IDK, but the reviews have me intrigued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 18, 2007 Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 O.K., sorry. My fuse is a bit shorter than usual anyways -- long night with the kids. Order a set of Al's attenuators and dump the L-pads. When you get everything together, set the jumpers on the networks to taps 4 and X (be sure to observe proper polarity as per the instructions in the manual that Al sent with the networks). When you install the attenuators, start with the -3dB setting. Now, the Universal Type A gives the speaker a somewhat accurate and analytical sonic signature, and it does take some getting used to. Also, did you buy the 2404's new or used? If they are new, you might want to consider that it takes a driver like that a couple of weeks to settle in. Dean, I followed your advice and it worked. Thanks for your help. For a while I thought I was going to have to sell Al's crossover. I put the taps at 4 and X, and the shrill sound is GONE!! I'll live with that setting for a while and see if it needs fine tuning later. At least you got to the source of the problem. I'll also talk to Al about getting the tweeter attenuators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 That's it? All you did was change the taps and everything magically got fixed? What tap numbers were they on before? I'm amazed, surprised/shocked, and jealous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Redwood, that's great. I hate to see someone give up on those without working with them a bit and giving some time for the ear/brain to adjustment to the new sound. Most by and large consider it a major improvement, but every once in a while you run across someone who's so dialed into the Klipsch signature that they can't make the adjustment. Lisa, the tweeter filters in Al's designs (Al designed your network as well) have an elevated tweeter output compared to the older Klipsch networks. Some really like it just the way it is, others decide they need to take it down a bit. You really should try a pair of Al's attenuators -- they're reasonably priced, easy to install, and better than L-pads. You have a real nice set of networks, you shouldn't give up on them yet. If I can scrape together a little extra money I'll try to build up some V-Capped Type A's to send around for people to hear. If someone has already had me build something for them, I would at least like them to be able to listen with them before spending any more money on another set of networks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 That's it? All you did was change the taps and everything magically got fixed? What tap numbers were they on before? I'm amazed, surprised/shocked, and jealous. Al usually sends them tapped out on 4 and X, maybe he sent these on 5 and 2, or even 4 and 0 by accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 18, 2007 Author Share Posted January 18, 2007 I have the raw Khorns from thirty years ago. The whole cabinet is hidden behind giant framed grill cloth fronts. Les Redwood - I'd sure like to see a pic of that if possible. Sounds interesting. Also, may I ask how old those AA's are that sound muffled to you? I'm looking forward to hearing your Trachorn review. I have this same 'shrillness' issue and the more I listen to my other Klipsch vintage types, the more I think I just plain don't like that mid-horn. Dean - These V-Caps seem to be impressing people lately. Maybe we can talk about it sometime as I wonder if they might be better for my situation? IDK, but the reviews have me intrigued. Meagain, I can't figure out how to put a picture in here, so I'll send you an email the pictures in an attachment. I got the Khorns in the mid 70s. The AA crossovers are hopelessly muffled in my opinion. Also the AL-3 crossovers in the LaScalas are badly muffled, but not as bad as the AAs. The only crossover that works for me is Al's universal crossover where the level of the squawker can be attenuated or accentuated from the norm. With Dean's help I was able to establish that the tap setting of 4 and X works best for me now. I may change it later after I live with it for a while. As I just found out, it's not the midhorn thats the problem, its the setting on Al's crossover. At least the settings can be changed to suit one's taste. That's a step way above the standard Klipsch crossovers. Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Yep... 4 and X (-6.2db) is where I have mine set at. Since I am now using 511B's I may even attenuate the squawker a little more and see how I like it. The 4 and 1 setting attenuates another db, and the 2 and 0 setting another 3 db from my present settings. Glad you were able to work it out... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meagain Posted January 18, 2007 Share Posted January 18, 2007 Ah - the old tap discussion. I was at 5/2, tried 4/x but didn't like that either (forgot why), went back to 5/2. Ended up buying a digital EQ and EQ'd the sh*t out of the piercy parts. Still bugs me that I had to resort to spending the $250 on it and still seek a fix as I'd like to downsize some of the gear around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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