redwood forest Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Al's universal crossover is way too shrill for me. I tried attenuating the tweeter with no luck. That cut out the high frequency detail. I tried switching the squawker wires from it's transformer with no luck. Altering the squawker level lowered or raised the relative bass output. The Klipsch AL-3 crossover was simply too nasal with vertually no detail in the upper range compaired to Al's crossover which was quite open, but unfortunately too shrill. What is really weird is that the two crossovers working together with two pairs of speakers (one Khorn, one LaScala) and two identical ML334 amps sounded very good. The inside speakers were nasal, and the outside speakers were shrill, but the overall sound was perfect. Is there some way to get a compromise with the crossovers to get the sound right without having to do this stupid mixing of sounds? Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmusic Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 What were you using as a source, when it sounded too shrill? Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago_Pete Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I used to have the ALK's. Lots of people dig them but what worked for me was Dean's V-caps. I don't have a tolerance for shrill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I'm thinking it could be your room, or your tweeters, your amplification or your sources. I have universal ALKs in my La Scala's and I certainly wouldn't call them shrill. They are set at the -6.2 setting on the autoformer for the squawker, and that seems about right with my room. I'm also using BEC tweeters with Altec 511B horns. Not sure I have heard anyone complain of shrill highs with these networks before. I might do a little more experimenting before you give up on them. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 Jay, the source is the Proceed CDP CD player. Pete, How do I find out about Dean's V-Caps and where can I get them? Mike, the tweeter is the JBL 2404 so you can't do better unless you spend $1200 per tweeter. The JBL is 3dB louder than the Klipsch tweeter so I'm using an L pad to tame it down. The amps are Mark Levenson 334 so you can't do much better than that. As for tubes, don't go there please. Been there, done that. I'll try your -6.2dB setting suggestion. The problem may be the room which I'm checking into. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago_Pete Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I honestly cant say enough about Deans V-caps. I was totally frustrated and impulse bought them. Lucky me I guess? Very few purchases are the last ones. He posts on this forum frequently and may chime in. I dont know a lot about the JBL 2404 but I do own JBL 077's and a pair of cats eye 076 tweeters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Mandaville Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Here's one source: http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1172321138 edit: the other: http://www.v-cap.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Lindsey Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Levenson amps... if I had to guess I would start here. It ain't the money... it's the synergy. I have a good friend who had some Levinson amps with his La Scala's and he basically said the same thing. Didn't like them with the horns. They are great amps to be sure, just not sure they are a good fit with those horns. YMMV... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I don't find Al's networks shrill. The tweeter is a little toohot for my tastes, but that's comparing it to the Type AA. Whichspeaker are you running the ALKs in? Which drivers are youusing? K-400 or K-401? I haven't heard theType AL-3, so I can't say much about it. Can you identify thenote or notes where the nasily peak is? I may see something in thecircuit. Try ti ID the notes that bother you. If you are running K-55-Ms, they have a 7500 Hz "bounce" that mightmake me call them shrill, yet the ALK network should remove that betterthan anything. Type AL-3s would not affect it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 I honestly cant say enough about Deans V-caps. I was totally frustrated and impulse bought them. Lucky me I guess? Very few purchases are the last ones. He posts on this forum frequently and may chime in. I dont know a lot about the JBL 2404 but I do own JBL 077's and a pair of cats eye 076 tweeters. I'm confused. Are you saying to switch Al's caps for Dean's V caps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Are you using a tube amp. Not to say tube amps are shrill, but the transformer taps can provide some furthur custom connection options http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/857347.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 whoops..... double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Al's universal crossover is way too shrill for me. I tried attenuating the tweeter with no luck. That cut out the high frequency detail. I tried switching the squawker wires from it's transformer with no luck. Altering the squawker level lowered or raised the relative bass output. The Klipsch AL-3 crossover was simply too nasal with vertually no detail in the upper range compaired to Al's crossover which was quite open, but unfortunately too shrill. What is really weird is that the two crossovers working together with two pairs of speakers (one Khorn, one LaScala) and two identical ML334 amps sounded very good. The inside speakers were nasal, and the outside speakers were shrill, but the overall sound was perfect. Is there some way to get a compromise with the crossovers to get the sound right without having to do this stupid mixing of sounds? Les You are getting a wide, wide variety of opinions. I think what the problem is that your description is not "capturing" what the problem actually is. This, of course, is always a problem when "describing" a sensation in words. Changing the taps will only change the output of the midrange. However, your description is that the "relative bass changes". This is part of the problem in trying to figure out what is wrong. Perhaps some guesses might lead the way. Is the shrillness from both speakers (IOW, any chance that a diapragm is damaged?) Is the shrillness dependent on the overall level (IOW, is a component being overdriven or does a cabinet have a rattle in it)? John has alreday suggested that a better description with some music we are familair with or isolating the problematic frequency range would be very helpful. I agree. At this point I would stay away from sepnding a bunch of money on amps, electronics, and fancy caps until there is a more focused description on what the problem is. Otherwise the suggestions are just guesses. BTW, A chat with Al is critical. He will help you through this. Certainly he has seen it all before. Good Luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 I don't find Al's networks shrill. The tweeter is a little too hot for my tastes, but that's comparing it to the Type AA. Which speaker are you running the ALKs in? Which drivers are you using? K-400 or K-401? I haven't heard the Type AL-3, so I can't say much about it. Can you identify the note or notes where the nasily peak is? I may see something in the circuit. Try ti ID the notes that bother you. If you are running K-55-Ms, they have a 7500 Hz "bounce" that might make me call them shrill, yet the ALK network should remove that better than anything. Type AL-3s would not affect it. I'm using the JBL 2404 tweeter. The squawker used in the LaScalas is the K-55M; in the Khorns, it's the K55V. I shut down all the Tweeters, but the problem remains so the problem seems to be in the squawker. I switched the squawkers with the different crossovers, and the problem remains. The AlK is always shrill, and the AL-3 is always muffled. How can the different crossovers make the squawkers sound so differently? Will new V-caps make a difference. Are the crossover frequencies different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 The first thing I want to ask is if Al actually built the networks. After we establish that, we can move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOSValves Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 What I think you should do is install a stock Klipsch tweeter and get rid of the JBL/ Lpad combo.....please bare with me here because you will later reinstall the JBL if you like. Then adjust the mid horn taps until the speaker sound flat go to like -7db or 8db. Now stop and listen to this combo for a week it should sound somewhat flat. Now slowly raise the mid taps 1 db at a time until the balance seems the best it can get. Listen again for a week or more. Now if you feel like throwing the JBL back in the mix go for it. I played with so many crossovers and drivers it makes me sick. I have found that at least my ears get confused and addicted to over detail and I had to start from the flat sounding side of things and slowly work myself back to perfect balance with the newer crossovers, Trachorns, and tweeters. I must of cussed Al, Dean and BEC a thousand times but now I'm pretty much in hog heaven. Modifying these speakers is a major PITA. The balance goes out the window with every change you make. You just have to be persistent and in the end its worth it. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben. Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 You need a new preamp.[A] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redwood forest Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 What I think you should do is install a stock Klipsch tweeter and get rid of the JBL/ Lpad combo.....please bare with me here because you will later reinstall the JBL if you like. Then adjust the mid horn taps until the speaker sound flat go to like -7db or 8db. Now stop and listen to this combo for a week it should sound somewhat flat. Now slowly raise the mid taps 1 db at a time until the balance seems the best it can get. Listen again for a week or more. Now if you feel like throwing the JBL back in the mix go for it. I played with so many crossovers and drivers it makes me sick. I have found that at least my ears get confused and addicted to over detail and I had to start from the flat sounding side of things and slowly work myself back to perfect balance with the newer crossovers, Trachorns, and tweeters. I must of cussed Al, Dean and BEC a thousand times but now I'm pretty much in hog heaven. Craig I just bought the JBL tweeters, because the Klipsch tweeters were too grainy and not smooth at all. The improvement from the JBL tweeter is overwhelming. I came to the same conclusion a few minutes ago about your procedure to lower the squawker level. I'll just do it more slowly now. What level did you end up with on the squawker, and what else did you do to end up in hog heaven?I have ordered Al's trachorns. As soon as they come in I can add that to the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjgeraci Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I agree with Ben. Remember, forest is running a Placette straight line attenuator - from his CD player to his Mark Levenson amp. Remember Golden Ear award (or was that Golden Foot, Craig?) As a result, we are talking about the uncolored sound of the CDP and the amp. I still take the position that active preamps have the most overall effect on the quality of sound (good or bad). Was there ever a time when Khorns or LaScalas did not sound "shrill" in your setup? (with other gear??) And give us some point of reference to other Khorn or LaScala setups that you have heard so we can help. Carl. P.S. Although as a Trachorn owner, that is also a step in the right direction!!! But, the JBL tweeters should not be "shrill" or "harsh" with ALKs - given my experience with those tweeters and those networks - if the rest of the system is in synergy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 O.K., I'll try again -- did Al build the networks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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